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A meteor is coming and we're all going to die

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Richard King, Nov 19, 2004.

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  1. Nov 24, 2004 #81 of 105
    RichW

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    You are first an American and second a Democrat.

    Actually I am still a Republican but I understand the sentiment.

    And again, when it comes to the abortion, It is not as much of an issue for me when considering that about 30,000 kids die each day from preventable conditions. I would rather put energies into that aspect, which people generally just shrug off and say "too bad, thats life!".
     
  2. Nov 24, 2004 #82 of 105
    lastmanstanding

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    Where did I lie? But anyway, have a good holiday.

    LMS
     
  3. Nov 24, 2004 #83 of 105
    pjmrt

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    you cannot stop murder or rape by legislation either - is your argument that we shouldn't try? I do buy that argument. If its right and you approve, keep it legal. If you abhor it - work to change the laws to at least try and stop it.
     
  4. Nov 24, 2004 #84 of 105
    Geronimo

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    His point is that the situations are differnet and that, in the case of abortion, you may be endangering life which would seem copunterproductive.
     
  5. Nov 24, 2004 #85 of 105
    Tyralak

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    Which is a red herring, Chief. Everyone I know who opposes abortion knows exceptions have to be made for the life of the mother. This is no different than someone saying they should have the right to shoot a salesman on their porch who they don't want to be there. That would be cold blooded murder, no matter how inconvienient the salesman was. Contrast that with someone who breaks into your house in the middle of the night to rape your wife and dog, and kill the whole family. You would have every right to shoot that person.
     
  6. Nov 24, 2004 #86 of 105
    lastmanstanding

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    Geronimo,

    Yeah, I agree that banning abortion would do more hurting than helping, but I can't see the difference between killing a late term fetus and a 1 minute old new born. One is legal, and the other is murder. And this is the best our society can come up with.

    Abortion is such a simple procedure, outlawing it will simply drive it underground, as you have mentioned.

    So I guess in the current reality, those of us who see it as murder need to do what we can by educating those who will listen, facilitating adoption, and a really radical extremist notion, if you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. Teaching people to think beyond the next orgasm would do wonders.

    Keep your pants on, Chief!

    LMS
     
  7. Nov 24, 2004 #87 of 105
    Geronimo

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    I don't disagree with you LMS.

    Tyralak with all due respect I don't think tyou understood my point.

    But have agood Turkey Day anyway guys.
     
  8. Nov 24, 2004 #88 of 105
    Tyralak

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    Perhaps not. Could you explain?
     
  9. Nov 24, 2004 #89 of 105
    Geronimo

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    Your post was about making exceptiosn when the life of the mother is in danger. An important point but not the one that Bogy raised or I commented on. We were speaking about our belief that abortions woudl take palce any way but under less desirable circumstances.

    But again it's Turkey day. Let's get along.
     
  10. Nov 24, 2004 #90 of 105
    pjmrt

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    Killing someone, if its in self-defence (for example) is not murder - the law recognizes that. I'm sure an abortion law/amendment could be (and probably would be) crafted in a similar way. I really doubt that those who oppose abortion but "don't won't to impose their view" would support even that however. It would surprise me no end. But I could be wrong, after all HGL abhors abortion. For those who "abhor abortion, but ...": Would you write your senator, congressman,... to state that you favor a change to make abortion illegal except when the life of the mother is in jeopardy?
     
  11. Nov 24, 2004 #91 of 105
    pjmrt

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    And Chief I do agree with you on this "Happy Thanksgiving" - hope everyone has a good holiday.
     
  12. Nov 24, 2004 #92 of 105
    Tyralak

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    I see. Ok. Sorry about that. But to address your point, that may be the case that it would happen under less desireable circumstances. I'm not sure that's a valid reason to keep it legal, however. Lots of things that are illegal cause those who wish to practise them to take their activities undrground under less than optimal circumstances. Smoking crack while performing questionable activities with donkeys, for instance, or prostitution, or child pornography. The illegality of those activities require the individual to practise them in the shadows, often under dangerous circumstances. This alone, however is not sufficient reason to leagalise those activities.

    Agreed.
     
  13. Nov 25, 2004 #93 of 105
    SAEMike

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    But you are clearly against him, which I respect. Happy is against and for abortion in the same sentence.
     
  14. Nov 25, 2004 #94 of 105
    HappyGoLucky

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    I already have written my representatives about the matter, numerous times. I wonder just how much more pathetic you can get in your quest to denigrate me?
     
  15. Nov 25, 2004 #95 of 105
    HappyGoLucky

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    No, I am not. Stop lying.

    What you and pjmrt accuse me of is disgusting and loathesome and I want it stopped RIGHT NOW. Would you like it if I continually accused you in every thread of molesting children? In every post pointed out how you're nothing but a child molester, raping innocent children? I'm sure you wouldn't enjoy that very much. Well, that's exactly the same level of lies you're making against me and you should cease here and now.

    I realize the forum moderators allow you total freedom to be as nasty as you want, to lie and demean with abandon, but that doesn't make it right, and I hope others here see you for the pathetic person you really are.
     
  16. Nov 25, 2004 #96 of 105
    djlong

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    That's the whole point - the definition of "innocent human life".

    Nobody can draw a line reliably as to where human life begins because some view a fertilized egg as just that - one-cell, etc. it's like when you take a picture. You say you have a picture, but it need developing, printing, etc before it's really a picture. You have all the ingredients for a human, but it needs gestation, feeding, etc.

    Now, the longer into the pregnancy you get, the more 'human' you're getting - as far as going from 'potential' to reality.

    Personally, that's why I think there's such a hot debate about.
     
  17. Nov 25, 2004 #97 of 105
    pjmrt

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    Believe it of not, I'm not trying to denigrate you. From your earlier posts, it was not obvious to me. Most people I know, when the say they "do not approve of abortion BUT..." - that "but" almost every time means they will not support laws to make abortion illegal (except in cases where the mother's life is endangered). In fact they generally will not support any change in the abortion laws. Enen abortions from the third trimester which is the most hideous barbaric act possible. So yes I'm cynical when people say "I oppose abortion, but don't won't to impose my views" - as usually its an excuse to maintain the status quo. You say that's not you HGL, Ok.
     
  18. Nov 25, 2004 #98 of 105
    HappyGoLucky

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    So my explaining to you over and over and over again that your assumption is wrong isn't good enough?
     
  19. Nov 25, 2004 #99 of 105
    lastmanstanding

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    Happy,

    You are right. From your posts, it is clear that you are not for abortions, and in fact are against the procedures. I do not doubt your sincerity.

    Shifting to Senator Kerry's position during the debate, when he used the phrase "I will not impose my views on others", he was in fact giving his tacit approval. Wait, there was nothing tacit about his position. He effectively gave his blessing.

    As private citizens, Happy, you and I have the luxury of being personally offended and against abortions for us and our families but not for outlawing it for others.

    But Senator Kerry does not. When someone asks to be President, to take on the mantle of leadership, he cannot legitimately be on both sides of such a devisive issue. And the majority of Americans voted against him.

    And as I stated in a post to Geronimo, I believe that outlawing abortion will cause more pain that good by driving them underground. So I vigorously support creating an environment that celebrates life, and teaches that murder is not a choice. The procedure is too easy to do, it would be like outlawing alcohol. But we need to say that while legal, abortion is wrong, that adoption is the only humane alternative to not accepting the responsibility for the life that has been created.

    Abortion is murder, and murder should never be a choice. And once enough people understand how wrong it is, it will wither and die on the vine.

    LMS
     
  20. pjmrt

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    I guess I don't understand your position then. You say abortion is murder and murder should never be a choice. I agree whole heartily. But you say you want to keep it legal. It would be nice if people didn't do bad things. But legalizing something (or in the case of abortion, keeping it legal thanks to flawed court rulings in my opinion) will not make things better. People will make bad choices. If abortion is murder as you say, but should not be punished under the law - then why should any other murder be punished under the law? Indeed, why have law? I don't think you can have it both ways.

    Abortion should be illegal - with some reasonable exceptions (the same as other murder laws - for example abortion allowed when the mother's life is in jeapardy). It may drive a few abortions underground - but by making it harder, they will have to think about that choice harder and many will realize it is not the right answer. I suspect most abortions are made in a highly emotional state - and under most laws, they cannot even be counciled about the negative aspects of abortion. In fact, many times the doctors are forbidden to involve the parents if the woman is a minor. Its a bizare, ugly system the abortion industry has spawned. Its good to educate people about abortion - but ultimately laws must change for things to improve significantly.
     
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