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Discussion in 'The OT' started by odie, Jun 1, 2005.
How about those who have died in our custody, is that severe enough?
Every time we shoot a car filled with a family on their way to a family outing because some guardsman got nervous the whole mission is set back once more, giving fuel to those who want to see us fail.
I've got an idea, lets blow down the doors of a moderate leader who has been working with the U.S. at four in the morning and drag him off blindfolded for interrogation. That will endear the rest of the Iraqis to our plans. If this is the way we treat our friends, just imagine what we do to our enemies. :nono2: :eek2:
The rest of the world being which nations?
France? Russia? Germany? Cuba?
So, you're saying we need to be perfect, and not make mistakes?
I'll worry a lot about it when we stop investigating claims of abuse in our own institutions, and al Qaeda starts investigating them in theirs.
Well, we are the best. I think you want it to be perfect. Doesn't happen.
The rest of the world. Just which nations in "the rest of the world" have been impressed with our treatment of prisoners? If you think it doesn't matter you may need one of Dale's courses as well. Perhaps you and W can take one together.
Most folks aren't talking about the demeaning pictures, but the documented DEATHS committed by our hands.
Doesn't mean we should calmly sit by and accept that **** happens either. I don't think we expect perfection. But we do expect ourselves to at least do our best to uphold our own ideals of law and order.
Accidentally killing an inmate who is resisting is one thing and is possibly excusable even with the best of intentions. Accidentally killing an inmate because you are torturing them is entirely unacceptable.
I've already made the statement that we are asking soldiers to do something they were not trained to do. Rumsfeld was sure our troops were going to be welcomed as heroes and saviors, and never planned on terrorists and insurgency. Lots of others figured we would get the response we did, but the administration, as always, only listened to the voices that told it what it wanted to hear. Shooting Italian agents who have just freed one of their citizens is the kind of mistake that doesn't help our cause among those who are supposed to be our friends either.
We have been far from perfect in this whole endeavor, with lots of room for improvement. The attitude that its OK, since we obviously meant well may satisfy you, but its not winning us points among those we are trying to influence to our way of thinking.
You mean we should investigate what happens and when applicable prosecute those responsible?
Where ISN'T that happening?
"How about those who have died in our custody, is that severe enough?"
How did they die?
Hey, Bogy, you're smart enough to know you can't get away with that nonsense. So what did they die from? Were that embarrassed to death? Were they scared of the evil woman who told them to pose for the pictures? Or do you have evidence that they were put on a metal frame and had their limbs slowly cut off until they died of physical pain or similar torture practice? Or were they put in the center of the prison compound, bound and gaged, and our soldiers ordered to throw stones at them until they talked or died?
There is no way you are so stupid that you don't know the difference between real torture and simple intimidation tactics to interrogate a POW.
Now I will admit that we may have some soldiers who have possibly crossed the line and used real physical torture such as electric shock and similar deadly tactics but these were loose canons who acted on their own and were not doing this as a matter of SOP. In the case of our enemy, not only did they use kill tactics such as be-headings but also paraded the torture, executions in the press in an attempt to scare the world, they mean business. The soldiers who are found guilty of physical torture will be prosecuted as a criminal and if found guilty could receive punishment as a murderer.
"I've already made the statement that we are asking soldiers to do something they were not trained to do."
Good, then you agree with what I have said too. But I will be specific. We are asking our military to be nation builders, to be educators of democracy, to police the cities and police the country of it's crime. IMO, the real war was over long ago when we stopped the attack and the country's governmment was removed and there were no more Iraqi soldiers fighting back. Our military has no business doing nation building and police work. Rush Limbaugh says it like- Our military is the best at killing people (hopefully he meant our declared enemy) and breaking things (hopefully he meant our declared enemy's property).
US detainee death toll 'hits 108'
Oh, you mean Lyndie England and that poor schmuck reservist female general scapegoat who was "in charge" of Abu Ghraib? Gimme a break.
Bremmer and Franks got medals. Rumsfield is still SOD, praised by his boss for his "superb" performance. Wolfowitz will soon be head of the World Bank. And Alberto Gonsales, who green-lighted the whole thing, has been "booted up" to Attorney General.
Yeah, that sure sends the message this sort of thing will not be tolerated!:sure::hair:
Wow more than a year later we are still crying about Abu Ghraib. What about oil for food? that broke around the same time in the shadows of Abu Ghraib. It turned out that many high ranking UN officials were on the take. So were hundreds of companies throughout Europe. All for years getting kickbacks from the enemy (Saddam not Bush).
IMO it was the catalyst for the opposition to the war. Everybody had there fingers in the dyke's and were desperate top keep it from breaking. It was swept under the rug by every main stream news organization in the world.
Meanwhile all the left was horrified that a few islamic extremists were forced to get on all fores and be treated like a dog. Then at the same time Americans are being kidnapped and beheaded.
More moral outrage about Abu Ghraib and possible desecration of the koran than civilian Americans being tortured to death or our supposed allies in Europe selling us out because they were on the take in oil for food.
All the while the American media is harping on GW's record. Anything to end the nightmare. I wonder which nightmare they think is more important to end.
No I don't need to wonder and neither do you.
No, I'm talking about the ongoing murder investigations, not the silly leash photo BS.
Change the subject? OK, refresh my memory. How many naked pyramids were involved with "oil for food" again???
Americans and American companies also profited. Something always conveniently omitted in all the "moral outrage".
During that same period, American companies like Cheney's Halliburton and others, directly and through subsidiaries had no qualms about taking Saddam's money for various purposes. I doubt highly ever returning a check or refusing a bank transfer because of questions about the origin of the capital.
The "moral outrage" here seems to be more of a product of American companies being largely left out of the loop and bereft of the financial benefits. Do you really believe the likes of Tyco or Enron would have demurred for ethical reasons had they BEEN offered a piece of the "oil for food" gravy train?
I'm not forgiving anybody here. People and companies that offered and took bribes, and/or profited from such transactions should be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law allows. But the righteous indignation we see now is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Similar schemes have been set up in the past, often under the auspices and direction of the US government. And often with the barely subliminal purpose of making certain Americans and American companies fabulously rich by participating in them.
Well we'll just have to wait and see then, eh?
And oh yes, those "silly leash photo(s)".:rolling: I suspect any day now Fox or the WB will debut a sitcom based on those wacky reservist prison guards, ala M-A-S-H. Let's see.:scratchin How about Phoebe from Friends for Lyndie and Kirstie Allie as the blundering commanding general. Working title- "Take my Abu Ghraib, PLEASE!" Tune in, it'll be a hoot!
Evaded and deflected like a true lib. If for one min haliburton or any American company was remotely linked to oil for food it would have been front page news in fact the bozos at air America had a few rants just like yours and were unsuccessful.
The French Russians & Germans some of the loudest voices opposing the war were knee deep in it. They profited while Saddam built palaces and rape rooms.
But nobody cared.
Americans like Nick Berg were tortured (IMO those seconds before he died while his head was hacked off was real torture) and the only thing that is important is Those poor prisoners...
When the first dirty bomb kills thousands of Americans in some city some time then maybe you will realize that they are wrong and America is right. It is unfortunate that September 11th was not enough of a wake up call.
I really don't care about someone on a leash. Murder is one thing. Making someone wear undies on their head? That's not torture. Get some perspective.
According to the linked story, 26 deaths out of 108 total detainee deaths are attributed to violent actions taken by Americans. Some of what I have previously read/heard earlier is that we are talking about beating people to death, and suffocation due to gags/hoods. Doesn't sound like a pleasant way to go.
As far as the latest on the Oil for Food, it turns out that at least one American company was in on the take. It was covered by Fox News, so I don't know how you missed it.
American profits from Oil for Food
Here is a list of some of the American Co. that participated in the Oil For Food program.