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Chinese Gymnastics age discrepancy

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Greg Alsobrook, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    Let us also not forget the gymnast who received a 0.0 because she started her vault a second too early. Compared to this rather semantic point, the idea of a government being complicit in a scheme to defraud the IOC seems to cry out for stern punishment. This is especially true when one takes into account that the rule in question was established to protect the lifelong health of the children involved.
     
  2. Darkscream

    Darkscream Legend

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    Yes - but cheating takes many forms.

    Would you say a government instituting new rules to let a foreign national compete for that country and win a gold medal - and NOT have to follow the same Immigration rules as every one else - is cheating ?

    I would - and it is DIRECT intervention by a government.

    Most notably by President Bush. The disgusting rush to get Miss Tanith Belbin in as an american so she could win a gold medal in ice dancing should result in America having to forfeit those medals and be banned from who knows what - if we follow some suggestions as espoused in this thread.

    But - she was pretty - and doing it for America - so that made it all okay.

    Funny how we whine when we lose - when we are just as complicit in cheating and rorting the system as everyone else.
     
  3. Darkscream

    Darkscream Legend

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    And there is more than enough evidence to suggest institutionalised drug cheating by american athletes to have the entire US team banned from every major athletic event for all eternity.

    Done with the complicit blind eye from all Official US sporting bodies.

    Start a bit of a crack down on drug cheats and look what happens - the US track team becomes 3rd rate and basically insipid - esp here at Beijing.

    Does China cheat ? Sure.
    But so does everyone else too.

    That's a level playing field in my book.

    May the best cheats win.
     
  4. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    What happened to "cheating is cheating"? There has to be degrees of punishment, because not all cheating is the same. Technically speaking, commiting a foul in basketball is cheating (it is against the rules, which is why there is a penalty for it after all) so excessive fouling should (and is) an be an ejectable offense. Staying in your lane is part of the game, so if you can't do it... bye.

    But IF they are underage, the gymnasts here didn't instigate the cheating themselves. For all we know they don't even understand all the rules and could have been told it was ok. I can't speak for China, but in the USA a 14 year-old cannot legally enter into a binding contract because she would be deemed too young. There are things kids are expected to be responsible for... but if a 14 year old said she was 16 her coach would still be the one punished here because he would be the one legally responsible for checking and verifying her age. In the Chinese case, it is not clear the girls themselves are behind anything, but merely are going along with the flow and doing as they are told.

    Can't compare apples to oranges like that. Marion Jones knowingly took steroids herself, and then competed. Marion Jones was the entire instigator of her fraud. These Chinese athletes, if underage, are clearly not the architect but merely are pawns.

    As for the medals themselves... I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, if they are truly underage then it is unfair BUT also the USA women lost because they made mistakes. They did not earn victory themselves. I think there is past precident for "upgrading" Silver and Bronze medallists to Gold and Silver respectively BUT leaving the already issued Gold in place for the athletes.

    I'm not sure I'm in favor of stripping the medals themselves when you consider that these girls likely will not compete again (whether banned or not) and likely had no say at all and worked hard and actually earned (by competition) the medals they were awarded.

    The country and government can be punished, as well as coaches and other people "in the know" and this SHOULD include any IOC people if they were complicit as well... Perhaps even banning some future competition is warranted... but I don't think I would strip medals from this year's athletes. I would just upgrade the other competitors' medals and let it be done there.
     
  5. Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    I completely agree that there are rules that I wish were changed, but there is a difference in using the rules to one's advantage (naturalizing a foreigner so as to have her compete) and defrauding the rulemaking body.
     
  6. Darkscream

    Darkscream Legend

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    How is naturalizing a foreigner NOT defrauding the rulemaking body ?

    In that case why have countries compete ?

    China should have been smart and bought all the good athletes from anywhere in the world for 1 billion bucks each then and claimed them as Chinese if you think what happened with Belbin is fair.

    China winning every single event doesn't make for a good Olympics according to me and I am sure the IOC.
     
  7. fluffybear

    fluffybear Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    Peachtree...
    Then we need to restore the silver and bronze medals to those 2 runners who were disqualified for going out of their lane. After all, they worked and trained hard but accidentally stepped outside of their lanes while making a corner.

    I do not see these girls as pawns but willing participants. Yes, the coaches, parents, and Chinese government may be the masterminds but the girls have to be punished.

    Maybe we could replace the gold medals (which they may not have earned honestly) with ones Gold foiled chocolate ones.:D
     
  8. Darkscream

    Darkscream Legend

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    Seems fair and while you are at be sure to include every single american track runner who has won a medal since - oh - let's say the early 70's.

    Oh and do not forget swimming.
    Cycling.
    Weight Lifting.
    Boxing.
    And god forbid...Gymnastics too.
     
  9. Lee L

    Lee L Hall Of Fame

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    You won't get an argument from me that the residency rules need a tune-up. No way should countires be able to hire mercenary athletes who were just barely not good enough in their home countries and let them play.
     
  10. Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    It's not technically fraud because the rules say you can do it. It may be unethical but it's not against the rules as I understand it.
     
  11. Darkscream

    Darkscream Legend

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    I believe the rules say you represent the country you live in - or are resident of - or a citizen of - or whatever it says - it does not matter.

    If you are flouting whatever the rule says - by fast tracking someone who would not normally qualify for whatever the rule says - you are cheating.
     
  12. Darkscream

    Darkscream Legend

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    Fast tracking is the key phrase here - code for pulling a swifty.
     
  13. durl

    durl Hall Of Fame

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    A couple quick points. Indeed, there were extraordinary actions taken to get Belbin and her partner fast-tracked to naturalization. No single party gets the blame here. There'd be no bill to sign unless it came out of Congress, and this bill was sponsored by Carl Levin, a Democrat. (Trust me, I'm not going political here. I'm just saying that it took more than one person to make it happen.)

    I'm with Stuart on this one. What the US government did is far different than what the Chinese government is accused of doing.
     
  14. jayn_j

    jayn_j Mentor

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    I respectfully disagree. As the parent of a former high level gymnast, I would state that dance and grace is definitely a major part of gymnastic scoring, especially on beam and floor. My daughter won many a meet by exhibiting graceful dance moves over kids who just flopped through more difficult tumbling.

    Of course, the possible exception is the Olympics where vault is reduced to whether the girl took a step on the landing and floor is whether she went out of bounds (according to the commentators)
     
  15. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    In these games the gymnastic events were judged with a start score for difficulty and a second score with deductions for not performing well. If they were judged by asthetics even the top medalists would have problems getting a good score. Few looked like they were enjoying their routines.

    The winners won by attempting more difficult routines and not messing up so much that they lost the edge given to them for making the attempt. There was incompetence shown by the judges ... but that is to be expected considering the pool of countries that the judges came from. I believe many times errors were overlooked or underdeducted because the gymnast attempted a more difficult routine. Thus giving those who risked harder routines a double bonus.

    Note I said harder ... not more graceful. Modern gymnastics is just another strength and balance sport.
     
  16. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Ok, so if these girls are found to be 14, then they should be imprisoned for a federal offense (participating in falsification of official documents)?

    Seriously, how can anyone simultaneously argue that the girls are too young to compete and gain an advantage based upon their youth AND that they are mature enough to know and be responsible for what they have done?

    You simply cannot have it both ways. Sorry, I don't see these girls as being the problem in any way shape or form... especially when you consider that many of the adults complaining aren't wanting the Chinese to stop having "underage" athletes but rather to be permitted to exploit underage girls themselves in the interest of "fairness".

    It is perfectly fair to blame the adults in the situation if the girls are proven to be underage... but I can't take part in blaming the girls. Next thing you know someone will say Jon Benet Ramsey was at fault for participating in those pageants she was a part of before her sad death.
     
  17. Dave

    Dave Icon

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    Probably the best idea would just be to ban the olympic games altogether. This way there is no complaining, griping, or acusations of cheating. Just because someone put an article on the internet or writes a story about a little girl, then we have believers. I have seen to many stories proven wrong from to many crooked journalist in the country to believe most of them under any conditions. You may find this a harsh statement. But to many journalist in our country tell to many lies, that we the public have bought into until the kournalist actually admitted to lying for the story. Next we will calling for a boycott of the games coming up in Russia.
    Even though we only hear part of the story or only one side.
     
  18. Darkscream

    Darkscream Legend

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  19. fluffybear

    fluffybear Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    Peachtree...
    I never said that. The IOC is a private organization so barring them from future IOC sanctioned events is sufficient. If the girls entered the United States with false passports then I would have no problem with them being denied entry in future visits.


    There is nothing you can say that will change my opinion that these girls should be stripped of their medals if they provided the IOC was false documentation. By the same token, I am not going to change yours so rather then keep up this go nowhere debate, let's call it a draw! :)
     
  20. curt8403

    curt8403 Hall Of Fame

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    i read that the parents are furious about the investigation.
    major loss of face for them and the country
     

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