1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Climate Change Model s based on flawed Data?

Discussion in 'The OT' started by juan ellitinez, Aug 17, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ntexasdude

    ntexasdude Hall Of Fame

    2,684
    0
    Jan 23, 2005
    I hate watching the news. After I saw the story about the Puerto Rican Jesus I just can't get that Rolling Stones song Miss You from the Some Girls album with the lyrics "Hey, what's the matter man? We're gonna come around 12 With some Puerto Rican girls that's just dying to meet you" ... out of my head.

    :ringo:
     
  2. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003
    Don't be insulting. :p

    I've known quite a few people who treat them as one in the same. I was seeing where you stood, so I wasn't just being cute (though I am cute as a bug's ear).

    So, do you indulge in faith, and how do you define faith, specifically?
     
  3. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003
    The problem with that is that love is a subjective feeling, not an objective existent, and to equate them in standards of proof is silly--it's like saying prove that 3 + 4 = 7 and also that 3 + yellow = Todd.

    If gods are nothing but a feeling people have, I agree, they need not be proven. But if someone asserts that their god is an existent--a thing with an objective identity which has influence and impact on the universe--then they need to offer proof of their assertion, and the burden for such proof is on them for making the assertion, not on those who have the misfortune to be listening.
     
  4. jpl

    jpl Hall Of Fame

    2,776
    6
    Jul 9, 2006
    Sorry, I disagree. I don't see why I would need to prove my own beliefs to anyone. If I believed the moon was made of cheese, why exactly should I offer proof? I could be wrong... but if that's what I want to believe, why exactly is that a problem? Do I believe that God exists? Yes, I do. Do I believe He works in my life and the lives of others? Absolutely. But that's my belief. Belief is not something that can be proven. And I also disagree that love is some subjective feeling. It's a lot deeper than that. It has been a driving force throughout the history of the world. You would think that something that can have that much force should require proof of its existence - otherwise, why all the fuss? There are other feelings that don't embody as much as love does (I'd lay down my life for my kids... that's love that does that... there isn't another feeling out there that comes close).

    Besides, what jonstad is doing when he throws thing like 'you probably believe the earth is 6000 years old' is obfuscation in my book. Science is very different than anything else out there. It requires a level of proof because of what it sets out to do - demonstrate how the universe operates. Science without proof is really just philosophy. And besides, if I believe that God IS, and I don't prove it (or CAN'T prove it), what exactly does that show? As has been said: absense of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. My believing in God really has no bearing on YOUR life or on jonstad's. You don't want to believe in God - that's really your business. I guess what I'm saying is that belief is a personal thing - science is not.
     
  5. jpl

    jpl Hall Of Fame

    2,776
    6
    Jul 9, 2006
    I also threw that Sagan example in there to show that not everything worthwhile is provable. Whether or not it's a subjective feeling. Just because love is not provable doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.
     
  6. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003
    You need not. You only need to prove those assertions you wish to be taken seriously.

    If you wish to indulge in faith, that is your choice. But don't suggest to me that the object of your faith is anything more than fantasy without proof, and don't suggest to me that it need not have proof merely because you believe in it. You cannot eat your cake and have it too. Either its an unprovable feeling, or an entity which exists in the universe, but it is not both.

    Feelings exist as biochecmical reacitons in your brain (and those can be proven) but not beyond that other than, someone stating they have the feeling. Someone acting on their subjective feeling isn't evidence since it cannot be repeatable and testible.

    If you assert that your god is an existent--a thing with an objective identity which has influence and impact on (and even dominion over) the universe--then you need to offer proof of that assertion for it to be taken seriously by someone who does not indulge in the same fantasy.

    I won't defend jonstad, and in fact don't read his posts as I find them to be generally asinine and insulting. You will note I have not attempted to insult you or belittle you, I've merely attempted to engage you in discussion.

    It shows that you claim knowledge by ineffable means that do not have a basis in reality (that which exists).

    You'll notice I didn't say you god didn't exist. I asked "what god?" The burden of proof is on you IF you wish the concept to be taken seriously. Otherwise, I must discount it as fantasy since I see no reason that you would believe what you state other than your faith. Since I do not indulge in faith, your faith is of little use to me.

    Indeed.

    What god? I have no wish other than to believe in those things which are proven to me. And I will entertain notions for which there is testible evidence to suggest it without going so far as to believe, even. But I've yet to see that with anyone's god.

    It stays a personal thing so long as people don't (and I'm not saying you did) claim that their "personal" fantasy impacts reality.
     
  7. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003
    I like the color blue. My feeling is worthwhile in that it pleases me to have a blue desktop on my computer. No disagreement. That doesn't mean that my appreciation of the color blue is something which has impact on reality. My actions do (say, when I buy a blue chair) but that's really nothing to do with some people's fantastic belief that their god created them rather than vice-versa.
     
  8. jpl

    jpl Hall Of Fame

    2,776
    6
    Jul 9, 2006
    Fine, if you want to play semantic games - if you don't want to believe in what I call God, then that's your business. Better? I guess I don't understand the hostility (and sorry, I do sense some there). You don't want to believe, I'm not forcing you to. Besides, it's really irrelevent to the discussion at hand. I'm not trying to prove that God exists... jonstad IS trying to show that global warming exists. I threw that in there because the objections I get about my belief in things like global warming always seem to degenerate into personal attacks on what others perceive is my faith. Jonstad brought it up - not me. I was having a nice discussion of global warming, and why I think the theory is all washed up, and HE attacked ME with assinine statements about what he thinks I believe. I'm not comparing you to jonstad, and I'm not saying that's what you're doing. I guess I'm baffled as to why I need to offer proof for something that I'm not TRYING to prove? If I were to state "God exists..." as an assertion, then you're right. I would need to offer proof of my assertion. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I believe God exists, and besides it's really ancellary to the discussion at hand. If I were to say that "global warming is crap because God exists..." Again, you would have a point. But if I'm simply making a statement of belief, without using that belief to prove a point, why should I have to prove ANYTHING?
     
  9. jpl

    jpl Hall Of Fame

    2,776
    6
    Jul 9, 2006
    Let's just agree that the UN shouldn't exist :)
     
  10. ntexasdude

    ntexasdude Hall Of Fame

    2,684
    0
    Jan 23, 2005
    I'm sure glad you don't feel that way about me.:lol:


    Sometimes these internet relationships just don't go too far.




     
  11. skidog

    skidog Godfather

    400
    0
    Dec 2, 2004
    I'll agree on that.:)
     
  12. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003
    It's not a semantic game at all. Not sure how you get that.

    Not on my part. I'm still happy as a clam. :) I have no feelings at all on the matter of your belief in your god.

    I'd love to believe. It would be very comforting, I'm sure. I cannot believe because there is no evidence to even suggest let alone prove the assertion.

    True, it went off track. But I've asked this question of many people and wanted to see what your answers would be. I found the discussion enjoyable intellectually, especially with you--this new person here with whom I have agreed on much.

    I've not attacked you, I don't believe. Merely questioned you.

    There's a reason, as stated, that I block his posts and do not read them.

    You need not. I merely asked and it went from there. :) (I'm trying to add more smileys so you know I'm not feeling any hostility.)

    I rather think that assertion is implied when one uses the word at all in the way you have.

    If you'd rather not discuss it, however, I'm fine with that.
     
  13. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003

    Aye. :)
     
  14. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003
    Heheh. :) I really have enjoyed jpl's posts--even those where we've been obviously disagreeing.
     
  15. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    The one who made breasts, and the women to whom they are attached. :D
     
  16. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003
    Damn you and your evidence. *prays*

    :D ;)
     
  17. jpl

    jpl Hall Of Fame

    2,776
    6
    Jul 9, 2006
    I guess there's a reason that people shy away from talking about religion. Personally I would love to be able to have a discussion of things like global warming or evolution without being painted as an irrational moron (no, you're not doing it - but others are). In fact, and I really don't want to go too far with this, I wasn't even the one that brought up my belief in God in the first place. In one thread (probably this one) I made a statement against something jonstad made. What I got back was "you probably believe..." He made the assumption that because I took a conservative position, I was a Christian (I hadn't even admitted as much at that point - I don't believe I did, anyway). That just seems to always follow - make a point about a scientific issue that the left doesn't agree with, and you're not just a religious fanatic, but your reason is suspect because you justify everything in light of your religious belief. THAT'S what I get all the time. It's a lazy, condescending form of argumentation that's not much above "and so's your old man..." It is that condesceding attitude that I was objecting to, and why I brought up Catholic doctrine (jonstand made assumptions about my beliefs that were not based on any real knowledge - just bigotry on his part).

    Ok, I'm done :)
     
  18. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

    5,222
    2
    Sep 16, 2003
    I don't generally push people, but with those who're intelligent it can be fun. It was fun with you. ;)

    You're no moron. I think you're not rational where your faith is concerned, but you seem to admit it isn't about reason, at least.

    You'd be surprised how often I get that--and I'm an atheist who was raised Jewish. ;) But because I hold some positions considered conservative, my more liberal positions get ignored and I'm made out to be Pat Robertson or Karl Rove. ;)

    In the meantime, they believe rather religiously that man is causing global warming. Who said the left was rational? The entire philosophy (if it can be called that--really it's an ideology) of the far left is one of contradiction and illogic.
     
  19. ntexasdude

    ntexasdude Hall Of Fame

    2,684
    0
    Jan 23, 2005
    Do your parents still invite you over for dinner?

    Curiously and seriously, what about your brother?
     
  20. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

    13,242
    1
    Mar 23, 2002
    Do you realize how often I am assumed to be an atheist because I'm liberal. :D
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page