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DECA vs. Ethernet Technical Discussion

Discussion in 'DIRECTV General Discussion' started by harsh, Jun 17, 2011.

  1. dsw2112

    dsw2112 Always Searching

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    Yep, now that I would understand :)
     
  2. joed32

    joed32 Hall Of Fame

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    Didn't have to make any changes to get MRV to work, only the internet connection which I actually don't use but just wanted to know that I could.
     
  3. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    Lets look at some real world data...perhaps we could even call them facts.

    Real world, every TV location has or will have an RG6 cable. Ethernet is becomming more common, but still rare. Nearly non-existant in older homes. So, point for DECA.

    Installation of RG6 is easier than cat5/6. Point for DECA.

    Normal RG6 is rated for exterior use, where most retrofit cabling is done. Cat5/6 not so much. Point for DECA.

    DECA does not require any 3rd party network gear. Cat5/6 does. Point for DECA.

    So at this point is 4 - 0 in favor of DECA in REAL WORLD observations.
     
  4. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Reality, what a concept. :D

    The fact is you are correct. DECA will fit every install where as any other networking scheme will not. It's the one inescapable fact that no matter how old or new the home, and if it can have DirecTV, then the standard install is all the cabling necessary for MRV. No additional work, no having to figure out dozens of different pieces networking hardware, just put a DECA adapter and you’re good to go (unnecessary for Hx24s/H25s).

    It really is the best solution. Even for me with my own network and having all my receivers connected via Ethernet. Then I went to DECA and got rid of four Ethernet cables and a switch.

    Mike
     
  5. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    Can I deduct a couple of bits?
    1/4 point: RG6 is not already in every home. If you add in RG59, the number of homes does approaches a very high percentage.

    1/2 point: these are really from DIRECTV (cable, Dish, etc.) point of view. Just seems like a small deduction is appropriate.

    Now some other points to be awarded:
    Consistent jitter/qos characteristics (-1/2point ethernet, +1/2 point DECA) :)

    0% of TVs have DECA right now. (Or nearly so.) Point Ethernet

    So I come up with 3.75 to .5. :)

    Cheers,
    Tom
     
  6. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    Stunning.

    Attack without indication of what you''re attacking.
     
  7. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    As IPTV becomes more popular and the price gap more critical, this may or may not continue. None of the Roku boxes or Apple TVs need coax. No widely distributed consumer devices outside of DIRECTV receivers support DECA. Finally, coax is absolutely lousy for portable devices (not necessarily handhelds or portable computers)
    I bet Ethernet has better penetration than MoCA and DECA combined. Fishing Ethernet cable is often a lot easier and one drop can serve a large number of varied clients.
    If you believe the party line. Otherwise, this is mostly a point for technologies that don't employ coax.
    I find Ethernet more forgiving (especially related to its diameter and flexibility) and easier to verify but you're the professional. I would point out that those new nearly flat Ethernet cables are way cool for hidden runs indoors.
    Agreed, but who wants exterior cabling other than the installers?
    DECA doesn't have any third party network gear; that's a point against. Retrofitting DECA is decidedly expensive and has very limited application in terms of home networking in a world where home networking is verily exploding with IPTV and DLNA capable devices, gaming consoles and VOIP phones.

    There are few, if any economies of scale to be had and sharing the connection with other devices in your home theater is decidedly discouraged. Point Ethernet.
    I think it depends on the perspective you have and whether or not you feel the need to defend DIRECTV's choice. I'd call it a draw if I were being generous but my 50 and 85 year old houses are fully CAT5e wired to all rooms that don't have a sink or large, noisy appliance in them.
     
  8. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    All interesting and valid points but kind of irrelevant. One could almost say you made a very good straw man argument by propping Ethernet/DLNA/IPTV/VOIP right up there without ever addressing the point made in post to which you replied.

    That point being made is that if someone has or is ordering DirecTV it doesn’t matter what’s already in the home. DECA is the easiest and most reliable networking scheme for DirecTV receivers. DECA adapters may be a bit more expensive up front but it saves time on the install and potential support down the road...especially when the subs router goes and has to call DirecTV because his MRV isn’t working after he replaced it.

    All of which is the very point here. With one cable you get MRV, On Demand, etc. effectively, reliably, and with the easiest support path after the install. And yes, even with the marginally higher cost of the adapters; it is the most economical choice for DirecTV. Your reply, while interesting, puts up a bunch of stuff that doesn’t dispute or even address any of these facts...unless your implication was that, as it relates to networking DirecTV receivers/DVRs, these other things are easier and more reliable to install and support. Is that what you’re trying to say?

    Mike
     
  9. hdtvfan0001

    hdtvfan0001 Well-Known Member

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    I think this is likely the most significant point in this thread.

    Delivery of a predicable, controlled, repeatable method for the Whole Home DVR Service (MRV) makes the most sense from a business, cost, and installation standpoint.

    In addition, having operated with both environments over a decent period of time, and seeing the reliability and performance of DECA, it's indeed the no-brainer option you've stated.
     
  10. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    If the point is about what's best for DIRECTV, then DECA is a good fit. If the point is what is most generally useful for the customer, not so much.

    Over time we've established that the failure rates for both are relatively low so if it comes down to DIRECTV offering a LAN segment that can only be practically used with DIRECTV equipment, that's not for the customer. DECA doesn't appear to be upgradeable nor is it particularly useful without DIRECTV service. It is somewhat like selling someone a truck and telling them you can only use it to carry goods from Costco.

    From the standpoint of troubleshooting not involving a truck roll, the first recommendation seems to be making the IP addresses static (I'm not convinced that this has anything to do with anything) and DECA doesn't address that in any meaningful way. Bringing up problems with the router is a non-starter as the router is going to be as big a part of a DECA installation as it is with any other connection technology. Avoiding DHCP simply makes changing routers more likely to be a problem.

    To the end of SWiM and DECA, DIRECTV has essentially said that they want to take over your coax and use it exclusively for their purposes and you need to forget about using it for your purposes. At least the coax is still usable in the event that DIRECTV is shown the door.
     
  11. Doug Brott

    Doug Brott Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    harsh, by implication in your post, you make it sound like its easier to install network cable than (1) wireless, which would be used in most of the application examples you noted and (2) coax which MUST be installed anyway.

    The latter would cost significantly more (mostly labor, some material) than just using what is there. Additionally it requires a decent router. Any one off the shelf isn't necessarily going to cut it. Your assertion that Ethernet is easier than coax on DIRECTV installs is absurd.

    That could change in the RVU world, but we aren't there yet. C30s are likely to have coax, sine DIRECTV techs will do the install. TVs will have Ethernet.
     
  12. Doug Brott

    Doug Brott Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    THAT IS THE POINT! .. Not one person here, ever, has said DECA beats Ethernet for "General use." The entire discussion from day one last year has centered around the fact that DECA is the best choice for DIRECTV. You have to consider all of the facts.

    There is no way that Ethernet is better than DECA when you consider all of the facts. This includes cost.

    Also, I've stated many times that if you have an existing Ethernet setup and the only barrier is DIRECTV not turning on whole home (other network stuff still works, BTW), then folks should use the unsupported method. Remember, folks that visit DBSTalk probably know how to install Ethernet so if they want to .. great .. It still means more wiring. I can assure you that I do not have DECA going to my computers in my house. I only have DECA on my DIRECTV boxes. It works great. I don't regret for a second switching to DECA because (with HR24s) everything is built in. The Ethernet cable would only add unneeded mess behind each DVR.

    So hopefully with your statement above you're finally getting what everyone else is talking about. This is for DIRECTV STBs, not for anything else.
     
  13. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Why would you need a networking scheme that’s useable outside of DirecTV’s equipment or after a sub no longer has DirecTV service? That doesn’t make any sense. Are you trying to say DirecTV should be supplying subscribers with fully functional home networks for all their networking needs? Who the heck is gonna support that? Last I check DirecTV was a TV service provider? :scratchin

    Bringing up router problems is NOT a non-starter. Apparently you didn’t understand my point so I’ll try to be clearer.

    How many different routers are there out there? How do you provide support for all the manufacturers and models? The answer is you can’t so you don’t. DECA doesn’t use a separate router so there’s nothing to troubleshoot.
    What? :rolleyes:

    What the heck does this have to do with a DECA setup? This is a nonissue with DECA so why even bring it up. :scratch

    This makes not sense what so ever. :ewww:

    What the heck would you be using the coax for? And, don’t say OTA because that it’s very tough to make work over the same coax with any service provider (not just DirecTV) so it really is a non sequitur. If you’re gonna argue against the use of DECA at least use practical real world situations that more and a minute fraction of subs would even attempt to make work. :rolleyes:

    Mike
     
  14. LameLefty

    LameLefty I used to be a rocket scientist

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    This thread has turned even more ridiculous than I thought possible. :nono:
     
  15. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    Wireless, baby! (What portable devices are you thinking of that aren't handheld or computers?) :)
    "...A lot easier"? "A lot easier"? I've fished both, coax has some very nice advantages when it comes to fishing and is easier on finishing than Ethernet. Joe six pack can finish coax (Dish Network hires them as installers...) :)
    Somehow I don't think you are Joe Six pack though... :)

    Everybody sing it with me: "WELL DUH!!" !rolling

    Comparing 15 year old technology penetration against 15 month old technology is so way, way beneath your normal arguments. Would you like to try again? :)

    Thanks for the laugh,
    Tom
     
  16. jasonblair

    jasonblair Icon

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    My complaint is that in order to have "officially supported" Multi Room Viewing with DirecTV, the installer will REQUIRE me to run coax into rooms that I don't have coax in. From my understanding, if a DirecTV installer shows up at my house, and I tell him to use the current Cat5e wiring instead of drilling holes in my walls for coax, he won't do it. Why should that be the case when there is already completely capable wiring already existing in the form of Cat5e?

    So whether my complaint is with DECA, or MoCA, or DirecTV, or the FCC, or the Girl Scouts of America... It doesn't matter to me. I just don't see why the "officially supported" version requires coax runs.
     
  17. sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    How else can you use a DirecTV box without coax?
     
  18. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    At this time, you must have coax anyway. Other than the the IP based MDU setup, every single DirecTv receiver available today requires a coax line. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Even unsupported, you still need a box with coax today.
     
  19. Alebob911

    Alebob911 Hall Of Fame

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    Good point ;)
     
  20. Doug Brott

    Doug Brott Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    I think you are making assumptions not yet in evidence if you are talking about the HR34 .. Clearly Samsung TVs do not have coax MoCA/DECA connections, they use Ethernet. We don't really know what "fully supported" means in this case yet because the product isn't released (HR34).

    If you are taking about anything other than an HR34 then you MUST have a coax connection anyway .. There is no alternative so your existing Cat5 connection isn't relevant if you want DIRECTV service.

    My guess is that with respect to the HR34, "supported" will mean getting coax connections to the HR34 and perhaps connecting the HR34 to a TV. This would also apply to any DIRECTV supplied client boxes. Additionally, it will be important to connect the TV to your home network. Any non-DIRECTV RVU devices would be the customer's responsibility .. effective "unsupported." I really wouldn't put too much stock into that word though as everything is going to take on a whole new look with this new model.
     

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