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DirecTV Lease vs Buy Confusion

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by w6fxj, Mar 4, 2006.

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  1. Mar 9, 2006 #61 of 145
    ScoB

    ScoB Banned User

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    Whatever - It is not really at all popular to take the side supporting D* - but I am just trying to look at it from their side and present what I believe would be their 'argument'. We all speculate, we really don't get any response directly back from D* or any of these companies. D* is the one making the multi-millions, they must be doing SOMETHING right. They have more subs than DISH don't they?

    But from the bottom of my heart, this place has shown to me that no matter what D*, DISH, cable, etc do, there are just way too many people complaining. Everything from HD-Lite, to wanting EVERY imaginable channel (including ones that don't exist yet). It certainly would be great if all of this TV was free, if the equipment was free - but that also is never gonna be again. (I'm not talking about OTA).

    I know that if any of these providers asked us all to pay what it would cost them to get immediate the capacity to do EVERYTHING - now that would just cause even more complaints.

    There is absolutely no single provider that offers everything - we all choose who we have based on our own situations, most of us do have choices, none of them perfect for our tastes. Some peeps complain when new channels with sports are added, some can't get enough sports, etc.

    But wolff - who cares if YOU leave this alone (I don't). Again you show that you believe your title - 'icon'. You mis-read my previous posts, and ended up blaming me for that. I answered yours and this other fellows sentence by sentence - not to be argumentative as you suggest - but rather because both of you don't seem to read entire sentences, you just read a couple of words and think you know it all.

    But you win. I won't be back here. Too much whining - just like I said in post #2 of this thread.

    TaTa
     
  2. Mar 9, 2006 #62 of 145
    dan8379

    dan8379 Godfather

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    I guess one thing that makes D*'s lease structure different from a car lease is the percentage of the overall cost of the product that you have to put down up front. From what I've read the new HD-DVR will be $799 to purchase, or $499 to lease. That means that you have to put down 62% of the purchase price as a down payment. Most people wouldn't plunk down over $12,000 up front on a lease of a $20,000 car. I really think if they did a $200 up front (for the HD DVR) and even a $10/month lease fee people would be much happier. There would still be complaints, no doubt, but it would be much easier for a lot of people to swallow.
     
  3. Mar 9, 2006 #63 of 145
    ScoBuck

    ScoBuck Banned User

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    I agree with whoever made the comment that pricing (lease or purchase) will ultimately be determined by how many people say YES and how many people say no. Also, as stated, the OVERWHELMING majority of subscribers DO NOT visit sites like this and are really not educated as most of the people that do. DirecTV, like EVERY other for-profit company has the right to, made a strategic decision and the fact is - it can either fail miserably or suceeds tremendously - time will tell.

    There has also been rampant conversation about how DirecTV will upgrade the current HD-DVR population. I have seen opinions all over the spectrum on this - from no additional upfront charges for current lease customers and so on. I'm willing to bet that if the upgrade charge is in fact reasonable, this uproar will disappear. From what I read, almost everyone here already owns their gear, they are not leasing, and are mostly worried about how the impending MPEG4 switchover will be handled and how this will affect them.
     
  4. Mar 9, 2006 #64 of 145
    ScoBuck

    ScoBuck Banned User

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    Read it and weep:

    Just checked the BestBuy website - looks like they have finally realized that they are LEASING not selling - pasted below are the T&C taken directly off the website. Mentions both NEW & EXISTING customers.

    DIRECTV Terms and Conditions

    By placing this order you agree to the following terms and conditions:

    YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT YOU HAVE NOT PURCHASED THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT, YOU DO NOT OWN THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT AND THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT MUST BE USED AND RETURNED TO DIRECTV STRICTLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS OF THE EQUIPMENT LEASE ADDENDUM AND THE DIRECTV CUSTOMER AGREEMENT.
    • PROGRAMMING AGREEMENT. Within 30 days of provision of DIRECTV equipment to you, you agree to activate any DIRECTV® TOTAL CHOICE® programming package (valued at $44.99 per mo. or above), or any DIRECTV PARA TODOS® programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo. or above); or any qualifying international services bundle, which bundle shall include either the DIRECTV® BASIC programming package (valued at $9.99 per mo.) or the DIRECTV PREFERRED CHOICE? programming package (valued at $29.99 per mo.) together with any WorldDirect? international-language service. In certain markets, programming and pricing may vary.
    • DVR service activation ($5.99/mo.) required for DVR and HD DVR leases.
    • PROGRAMMING AND PRICING SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME.
    • PROGRAMMING COMMITMENT. The programming package(s) must be maintained for a period of not less than (a) twelve (12) consecutive months (for accounts with only standard receiver(s)), or (b) twenty-four (24) consecutive months (for accounts with advanced product(s)/receiver(s)-digital video recorder (DVR), high definition receiver (HD) or high definition digital video recorder (HDDVR), including additional DIRECTV receiver(s)). After you have fulfilled your agreement to the required programming package(s), you are not obligated to continue your subscription to DIRECTV programming for any specific duration. Current DIRECTV customers may activate additional receivers with their existing DIRECTV programming package. THIS PROGRAMMING COMMITMENT IS SEPARATE AND DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER PROGRAMMING COMMITMENT YOU MAY HAVE MADE WITH DIRECTV AND IS FULLY ENFORCEABLE UNDER THESE TERMS.
    MONTHLY LEASE FEE. For a new DIRECTV customer, you will be charged a monthly lease fee in the amount of $4.99 per 2nd and each additional receiver leased by you in your household. For a current customer, you will be charged a monthly fee in the amount of $4.99 for each receiver leased by you in your household, unless you replace all of your owned-equipment with leased equipment, in which case, the monthly lease fee will be waived for the 1st receiver. Applicable taxes will apply. LEASE FEE SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME.
    • CARE OF EQUIPMENT. You are responsible for the loss of or any damage to the DIRECTV equipment that you have leased from DIRECTV. You shall have no right to sell, give away, transfer, pledge, mortgage, remove, relocate, alter or tamper with the DIRECTV equipment at any time. DIRECTV PROVIDES YOU THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT AS IS, AND MAKES NO WARRANTY, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, REGARDING THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT PROVIDED TO YOU. ALL SUCH WARRANTIES INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ARE EXPRESSLY EXCLUDED. DIRECTV IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RELATING TO THE DIRECTV EQUIPMENT PROVIDED TO YOU. In the event the DIRECTV equipment you have leased from DIRECTV does not operate, contact DIRECTV at 1-800-531-5000.
    • CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR FAILURE TO ACTIVATE PROGRAMMING OR SATISFY YOUR PROGRAMMING COMMITMENT. If you fail to activate your DIRECTV equipment within 30 days of DIRECTV’s provision of the DIRECTV equipment to you, you agree that DIRECTV or an authorized DIRECTV Retailer may charge you a fee, as liquidated damages, of $150 for each receiver that is not activated. If you fail to maintain your minimum programming commitment, you agree that DIRECTV may charge you a prorated fee of up to $150 for standard receivers and up to $300 for advanced products/receivers (e.g. DVR, HD, HD DVR, etc.).
    • RETURN OF DIRECTV EQUIPMETNT. If you cancel your order prior to installation, we will issue a full refund. However, once your system is installed and activated, we do not accept returns or issue refunds.
    • After installation, if you cease to be DIRECTV’s customer for any reason (whether voluntary or involuntary) or if you decide to disconnect/cancel/terminate your DVR service (if you are leasing a DVR Receiver), you must call DIRECTV within seven (7) days after the termination of your DIRECTV programming services or DVR service, as applicable, to (i) make arrangements for DIRECTV to pick up all of your DIRECTV equipment; or (ii) obtain information from DIRECTV necessary to arrange for a ground or air freight service to pick up and deliver all of your DIRECTV equipment to DIRECTV. You acknowledge that the DIRECTV equipment belongs to DIRECTV and the DIRECTV equipment, including the access card inserted into each receiver, must be returned to DIRECTV in good working order, normal wear and tear excepted. In the event that all of the DIRECTV equipment is not returned to DIRECTV within thirty (30) days of the termination of your DIRECTV programming services or is damaged when it is returned to DIRECTV, you agree to pay DIRECTV the sum of $55 per each DIRECTV standard receiver; $200 for each DIRECTV DVR Receiver; $240 for each DIRECTV HD Receiver; or $470 for each DIRECTV HD DVR Receiver that is not returned to DIRECTV or that is damaged when it is returned to DIRECTV as compensation for a portion of the expenses incurred by DIRECTV in establishing your account and providing you the DIRECTV equipment for your use. Visit DIRECTV.com or call 1-800- 531-5000 for details.
    • Your receiver must be continuously connected to a land-based phone line to activate certain sports programming and to allow pay per view ordering by remote control.
    • All ACH transactions are subject to settle the day after the order is placed.
    • ARBITRATION. You and DIRECTV agree that both parties will resolve any dispute arising under this Equipment Lease Addendum, the DIRECTV Customer Agreement or any other addendum thereto, or regarding your DIRECTV programming service, through binding arbitration as fully set forth in the DIRECTV Customer Agreement.
     
  5. Mar 9, 2006 #65 of 145
    w6fxj

    w6fxj DBSTalk Club Member

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    HD Impatient - Do you have a link to the DirecTV Lease thingy on www.bestbuy.com? I can not find it and the people in the Best Buy On-line help section swear up and down that the HR10-250 they offer on the web page is a direct SALE not a lease. I know the stores have the lease thing going but what about the on-line stuff?

    I was able to BUY a DirecTV HR10-250 online from NewEgg.com for $409.99. I made sure this was an outright sale before I completed the order. However I had one heck of a time getting DirecTV to activate it as MY equipment. It took the better part of two hours and talking to many different people at different levels. But, once a guy in the authorization card section found out that DirecTV would STILL activate equipment purchased after March 1, 2006, it was done.

    So, DirecTV CSR's do not know about this policy, but It does exist. DirecTV has no way to prevent retailers from selling DirecTV equipment at any price they feel is fair. There is still a lot of equipment in the retail pipelines that is being SOLD. DirecTV will activate that equipment, but the subscriber needs to know the policy.
     
  6. Mar 9, 2006 #66 of 145
    ScoBuck

    ScoBuck Banned User

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    here's the link - then click on terms and conditions:

    http://bestbuydtv.getconnected.com/existing_customer.asp
     
  7. Mar 9, 2006 #67 of 145
    ScoBuck

    ScoBuck Banned User

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    Hey Bill Wood - answer if you kindly will this hypothetical question...

    Suppose later on this year when the new H20-250 (if that's the correct model) MPEG4 HD DVR is released, DirecTV says:

    1) Subs leasing the H10-250 can upgrade for free or a nominal fee to the new box

    2) Subs that acquired boxes after 3/1/06 and INSISTED that they wanted to own not lease will NOT get a break (trade-in credits or nominal upgrade cost) - at least unless they return the old equipment and accept the new lease terms

    They certainly can't be happy that people are trying to get around their new policies. Doubtful that a person that insists on keeping the older box can get anywhere near the same deal as a lease customer that must return the DVR, or a purchased customer also willing to give it back - don't you agree?

    This could all lead to you (and others) having to get yet another HD DVR shortly in order to capture MPEG4.
     
  8. Mar 9, 2006 #68 of 145
    Wolffpack

    Wolffpack Banned User

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    Are we now inventing our own policies for DTV? If so, how about:

    3) If you already owned a HR10-250 prior to the creation of this lease program and that unit was purchased on a Wednesday, we owe you two units of equal or greater value.

    I understand your point, but let's not get too far out there. If someone wants to own, cripe, how's that hurt you?
     
  9. Mar 10, 2006 #69 of 145
    ScoBuck

    ScoBuck Banned User

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    Doesn't hurt me at all (matter of fact I do own). But before I let you get in a fight with me also (from what I see at the top of this thread you also threw your two cents in on another post not directed to you and started an argument), I'll end this - gee whiz, for a person that has openly stated many opinions, sorry you were offended that I was asking for one. I see a lot of people around here asking others what they think. Seems like you don't mind at all responding and putting down others on on your terms (even when it is NOT you who was asked a question).

    I just wanted to know if Bill would be put-off if they decide to treat lease customers different than purchase customers. Part of the original lease letter stated that one reason for the change was upgrade possiblilities and things like that. I think that it is a very distinct possibility that upgrades for people leasing will be handled differently.

    My big question to YOU - since I was asking Bill Wood - and you decided to respond - why was it hurting you? I hope all see now that is is you is argumentative to new members. Damn, I only joined this week and you butted in on 2 people and were very rude.
     
  10. Mar 10, 2006 #70 of 145
    cabanaboy1977

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    I wonder what they do with people who own and who have the protection plan. More so what they do when they run out of units to replace yours with. Will they still swap them for a like model or tell you sorry you have to lease on from us since we no longer have that one instock to swap it out with. Hopefully it won't happen but I can see it happening.
     
  11. Mar 10, 2006 #71 of 145
    ScoBuck

    ScoBuck Banned User

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    If it continues like in the past, they say right upfront when you call that they don't have to swap for an IDENTICAL unit, but a unit (new or reconditioned) that has at least all of the same features. I can't see that this would ever be a problem for them.
     
  12. Mar 10, 2006 #72 of 145
    harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    I would hope that the protection plan included in the new pricing scheme.
    I would imagine that when they run out of serviceable DTiVos, you'll get a non-TiVo.
    Has it been established that there is a difference in monthly rates between owned and leased receivers?
     
  13. Mar 10, 2006 #73 of 145
    hiker

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    I wondered the same thing but I don't think they have the right to change us over from "owned" to "leased" just because we get a defective replacement under the protection plan. I also found it odd that they reduced the protection plan charge from $7.99/mo for those of us with HD or DVR equipment down to $5.99/mo.
     
  14. Mar 10, 2006 #74 of 145
    hiker

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    The net effect is there is no difference in the monthly charge for leased vs owned or a mix of the two. See thread here for a copy of terms and condition with an example.
     
  15. Mar 10, 2006 #75 of 145
    w6fxj

    w6fxj DBSTalk Club Member

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    As best I can tell your link is to a Best Buy store web site and not www.bestbuy.com Nowhere on bestbuy.com is there a similar policy either linked or in their own terms and conditions.

    According to the people who handle the online stuff the stores and www.bestbuy.com have different policies. On-line sells DirecTV advanced products, such as the HR10-250, outright. The stores only lease DirecTV equipment.

    As to your other question, I doubt I will get DirecTV's new non-TiVo HD DVR under any circumstances. I am in the LA DMA and expect to use my DirecTV TiVo DVR's for at least another two years. Maybe by then DirecTV will have introduced something better than a MPEG4 HD version of the really bad R15!

    The HR10-250 might be slow and a little temperamental, but it is the Best HD DVR out there.
     
  16. Mar 10, 2006 #76 of 145
    Wolffpack

    Wolffpack Banned User

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    Agreed. Boy an upgrade to 6.2 sure would help the "slow" side of that problem. ;)
     
  17. Mar 10, 2006 #77 of 145
    ScoBuck

    ScoBuck Banned User

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    No, actually that link is for and from the on-line website. Do you not see the link entitled 'Buy Now'?

    Another way to access it directly from www.bestbuy.com is as follows. On the bestbuy website, click on electronics, click on DirecTV, click on new customers, click on link on that page that says 'Current Customer'? learn more..., and there you go you get the same link for the T&C.

    You know what? I don't think YOU are wrong, I do think the people you spoke to at BB customer service are wrong (gee what a suprise).

    As far as the other - I was trying to get your opinion on how you would feel if DirecTV offers a different upggrade policy for its lease and non-lease customers. Your opinion shouldn't matter if its not about YOU. This really might be the way that they eventually migrate everyone to the lease plan over time.
     
  18. Mar 10, 2006 #78 of 145
    Robert L

    Robert L Legend

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    So, what happens with people that has a extended warranty from somewhere like CC? I've had to turn two 10-250's back in for exchange in the past. The way CC always handles it is to just totally refund the purchased, then basically resell it again, and the warranty starts back over. So if it was a 3 year warranty, once its turned back in, it all starts back over.

    It doesn't make much sense too me the way they do that, but thats the way they did it, both times. That means if within the next 1.5 years my HR-10-250 goes out, and I exchange it, when I call directv they will try to make it a lease.

    Of course its not going to work with me, and I probably could get it changed since I'd just cancel if Directv didn't. Actually I'm wondering now how CC will handle that extended warranty, since they always wanted to reset it and start over. I assume they wouldn't even have a extended warrantly available now.

    Well, I don't like the lease program at all. There is nothing about it I like and while its not affecting me at all now, at somepoint in time it will. I'm only interested in HD DVR boxes, and I will not pay them $400 for something I will never own. Just like its been stated everywhere, thats not really a lease, considering the percent up front they want. Also it doesn't cost them $800 to make the thing, I know why they claim that but there is noway.

    No, I cannot give you a link or anything else, but I've been involved with consumer electronics enough to know that they just don't. Sure, they have start up costs and R&R, but nobody made them jump off and design their own mess. But its still not costing $800 to make it. Sure, the current lease plan with bring them in more money, thats for sure. But, thats going too far for me to be very interested anymore.

    I can see people not saying much that are just getting the SD stuff, but I really do think any new subscriber would back off after hearing how that lease works. Its always been my understanding that one of the reasons people went to satelllite dishes is to get away from a cable company lease.

    Now in some ways its worse with Directv than cable. Thats my opinion of course. No doubt cable is much better than the past, but the way most have dragged their feet with the software part of the DVR'S, they are screwing up a chance to really take back some of the people they lost. Of course lots go back anyway.

    I'll be interested in the new Series 3 HD tivo, it it ever exists and works. I would rather pay a 3 year lease type thing they released a few days ago, than deal with Directv or a cable DVR. If Tivo don't go crazy with the montly fee, I will probably go with that and a cable card. At least after 3 years or whatever time one picks, the box belongs to me and the fee per month will go back to the service fee.

    Its would cost me right now $15 a month for a SA8300HD, and I would want 3. So for me I would just pay the difference, if Tivo actually comes out with something, and cables cards work like they should. No doubt the HD picture is better on TWC in my area, than directv. Also Verzion is laying their fiber all around my house, but I doubt it comes online for a good while yet.

    I've been with satellite since the beginning of C-band and with Directv around 12 years. All that time my montly bill has been around $135. Lately though, lots of things they are doing just bothers me, while in the past it didn't. I'm not going to agree to another 2 yrs, even though if I did, it wouldn't stop me from leaving.

    I've always liked Directv over Dish. I didn't like the C-band equipment Charlie used way back in the 80's, and I didn't like what he uses for the small dish. Thats just my opinion. But since Directv wants to basically do the same thing, that means I'm not liking them very much anymore. Charlie has amused me with what he was able to do, but having a rather large C-band based dealer network really helped him in the beginning.
     
  19. Mar 10, 2006 #79 of 145
    ScoBuck

    ScoBuck Banned User

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    You are surely 100% correct that is doesn't cost $800 to manufacture the HD DVR. I know in my own business I don't sell things for what I pay for them, do you? If these companies could not make a return and their investment, upfront monies laid out for new satellites, new technology, infrastructure, etc. - they wouldn't survive. Do you really think that they should not make a profit?

    Don't you remember that not too long ago Echostar was ready to sell out to DirecTV? Can you only imagine the pricing and the packages if one of these companies became a monopoly?

    Just as the landscape has changed in the past two years (I purchased HD receviers for $700, others purchased HD DVR for $1100), it will surely be different in 2 more years. I also am not affected today by the change, but 2 years from now is when I also expect to get in play.

    New subs are not really affected at all by the lease plan (unless they don't want to committ to 2 years. However remember that the cancellation fee is pro-rated - the only people who would pay $300 are those cancelling in the first month - AND THAT IS FAIR. They come and install a new dish, they come and wire your house - if you cancel the first month TOO BAD. I wouldn't want that kind of person as a customer either.
     
  20. Mar 10, 2006 #80 of 145
    Robert L

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    No, I don't expect anyone to sell at or under cost. Even though people don't seem to mind when things are dumped in the USA that way, putting some out of business.

    The reason I said what I did about their hd-dvr is, I keep reading in different places that the buy price is cost, and the lease price is under. Thats crazy and the cost is under the least upfront price. Directv is suppose to be making most of their money on the programming anyway. But they can attempt to charge whatever they like of course. They didn't even build much equipment for many years.

    New Subs that want a hd-dvr will be affected and maybe that will go over ok or maybe it won't. I've never had a problem with the committment but I do with 2 years. Anyway, I understand what they're doing, it just don't really appeal to me. I've never called them for a discount and never received one. I paid the full price for the HR10-250's I have an its very unlikely I'll even want what they replace it with.

    I also thought they were in competition with cable but I guess its just Dish. I know cable will just love this new lease plan, the way they twist things up advertising.

    I'm not a Tivo lover but it works and records when its suppose too. Why that is so complicated for some other companies to built is kind of weird.

    But who knows Directv might make some changes that will change my mind. I'm not dropping them for now but within the next year its very possible I will.
     
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