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Dish AutoHop vs Networks Commercial Skipping Discussion

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by phrelin, May 15, 2012.

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  1. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    There have been more than a few posters who have pilloried DISH for offering such a solution. That many of them were subscribers of carriers that didn't offer the feature is not entirely important.
     
  2. Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

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    Ah, yes, everything, everyone has its homers.
    I applaud Dish for this innovation.

    It's made me consider how much I'd use it were it offered by DIRECTV® or I switched to Dish. It made me realize that I like to look at just about every new ad.... once, except Geico. So I'd use it a lot, but not all the time.
     
  3. phrelin

    phrelin Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    What makes this legal case interesting to me is Dish is receiving the signal pursuant to a retransmission agreement with the local affiliate. While there are copyright issues involved, those two parties knew that some people record the shows on DVR's and via pushing buttons those people could skip commercials. How does that change because on each show the pushing of a button by the viewer gets reduced to once per show?
     
  4. Herdfan

    Herdfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Competition is good for subs of BOTH providers. If there were only one sat provider, we would have 60-80 HD channels just like cable.

    In the current form with PTAT, probably not very much as I would most likely not use PTAT. But if would work on all shows the next day, then I would use it quite a bit.
     
  5. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    You say don't stir up more than the actual feature is. But guess what, that is what the feature is. Dish says it can eliminate some of the programing if you will let it. You say yes. Why does it matter what part of the programing dish is eliminating from the viewing stream, they are eliminating part of it under the guise that they have been given permission to by the customer and that it's part of the programing the customer doesn't want anyway. You can't look at this as though they are eliminating commercials only and that's ok, because commercials are not any different than any of the rest of the program, as it is all part of the broadcast from the owner, and dish isn't the end user.

    So I can steal money from a bank, and if no be ever catches me, it's ok? Innocent until proven guilty is more about punishment than it is about anything else.

    And actually, there is precedence for whole home DVR. It was called the VCR. You could record programs in one room and then take the tape to another room and watch it in there. There is a lot more precedence out there than some "innovations" would have you believe. Innovations are often just a heck of a lot better ways of doing the exact same thing in the same fundamental manner. Auto hop is not the same foundation, same manner, or even trying to accomplish the same thing as any other feature. They are trying to change who has the rights to do something, rather than how something is done. That's not just innovation, that's changing rights.

    Napster tried to innovate in the same way, by changing all the fundamentals and manners and rights. They failed miserably. However, apple and others came along, and changed all the fundamentals and manners the same way nastier did, but kept the rights the way they where and everyone got over it and is now happy with it.

    This isn't about stiffening innovation, it's about changing rights.it's been long established that only an end user can mess with something and change its format for personal use, and no middle man can do it without permission front he original owner. Dish doesn't have permission.
     
  6. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    The only argument I have seen that might save dishes butt in this, but I still don't see it. Dish created a "program" and then asks the user if they want to use it. Then dish does something that has never been allowed legally in an industry, to alter what the customer sees on their side of the technology, rather than giving the customer the tools to do it (ffwd, skip, etc) How is the user saying yes, don't let me see my commercials not giving permission to dish to run their program? Dish is the one that created the program to do this, not the customer. If the customer had created it, I'd completely see your point, but dish did, so again, how is it not dish asking if you want it do something not asking for permission?
     
  7. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Because dish is the one deciding what points to start skipping and end skipping. That's the issue.
     
  8. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Look I love this technology. I do wish people would stop saying dish is an innovator of this, they are not. Replaytv was. They just didn't have the money to fight the networks, and relented. Unfortunately as great as this feature is, I don't see how it's really going to win in court from a legal standpoint. And if it ever does, I don't see dish being able to resign a single carriage agreement with any broadcaster unless every single player out there offers the exact same feature immediately after they win, and I don't think there is a snow balls chance in hell of that happening, considering how many stations people like Comcast own.
     
  9. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    You still haven't been reading, have you?

    Nothing is 'eliminated'.
     
  10. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    If the viewer doesn't see it, it's been eliminated from the viewing stream. You just think that's different than physically erasing them. It's not.

    Napster said the same thing, about how they are no different than a friend loaning them a copy of a tape to listen to. It's not the same thing.
     
  11. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    IMHO, eliminated isn't really a fair assessment of what Dish is doing. To be fair, it doesn't seem any different than a stacked set of 30skip button presses. I don't see the commercials, I just skipped over them.

    With that said, I'm assuming the broadcasters/advertisers are going to perceive this as “eliminating” AutoHoppers from the demographics. From the broadcaster’s perspective, they’re assuming all the Hopper owners are no longer viewing their commercials and therefore can’t be counted when presenting advertisers with the number of potential eyeballs on the screen. Otherwise there wouldn’t be a lawsuit.

    So, while Dish isn’t actually eliminating anything, it is the net effect for the broadcasters/advertisers.

    Mike
     
  12. jdskycaster

    jdskycaster Legend

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    Napster has nothing to do with this case, not even remotely related so that is a really bad reference.

    You have also made yourself more than abundantly clear that according to YOU Dish is editing, removing, tampering creating new programming etc. etc. etc. and you have every right to think this way but that does not make it so.

    If you are correct, and I do not think you are, then the FF button originally placed on VCR remotes is copyright infgringement. NO difference at all. The skip button on my VCR is absolutely the same then as it just automated the FF process a bit more. Then along came digital DVR's and automated that process further with a timed interval skip using a single button. Press that button 7 times in a row (takes less than 2 seconds) and boom you are at the end of the commercial break. Now we have autohop and by pressing a button one time boom you continue to view your program without commercials. Really hard for me to believe you cannot understand a process that is so fundamentally simple. If they were editing the content then I could not go back to the show and watch it from start to finish including all the ads I originally skipped.
     
  13. Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

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    There is a difference between FF on a DVR/VCR and HopSkip®, aka AutoHop.

    Perhaps not a legal difference, perhaps not enough to think the lawsuit has any chance, but even with 30Skip you are exposed to the start or end of an ad, and with FF, you actually see each ad for a second or two. For me, that makes a difference than not seeing any fragment of them. I'm not suggesting that this difference is important for anyone else, but it is a difference.
     
  14. strikes2k

    strikes2k AllStar

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    It's a difference but, IMO, an insignificant one. Autohop just makes what the person was doing already more efficient. If they wanted to see the commercials they'd just watch them.
     
  15. Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    You may not fully understand the hopper process, but the logic of your argument is faulty -- ad content is always intact in the stream. By invoking the hopper feature, the choice is made that, in playback, the ads are passed over, the same as if the viewer performs a manual skip or ff operation for each ad using his remote.

    Dish's Hopper feature has done nothing but enable the viewer to invoke a preset to automate skipping, or 'hoppiing' over ad content instead of doing so manually via the remote. Either way, it's the same thing. The ad content is present in the recorded stream.
     
  16. Marlin Guy

    Marlin Guy Hall Of Fame

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    And to further elaborate, the commercials are only skipped if the viewer chooses to skip them AND the viewer doesn't FFWD past the skip point. FFWD one second too long and the commercials play.
     
  17. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The legal stuff really is off-base. Unless they get a really weird judge, I don't believe anything Dish has done here is illegal.

    That isn't the point, ultimately... because Dish winning in court will not be the end of this.

    All the channels that depend on advertising revenue that Dish enables the AutoHop feature will begin to demand more money. They will either get that money (and your bills will increase) OR those channels will be gone from Dish.

    That is the likely endgame.

    Either that,or as has been suggested, more in-show ads like on TNT that pop up stuff over the programming to distract you from the show you are watching... sometimes to the point of making the show unwatchable at worst, un-enjoyable at best.
     
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    First of all, AutoHOP is not precise. To say that people are not seeing any fragment of commercials is inaccurate.

    Second, copyright is copyright. Why would it be legal to skip 28 seconds of a commercial and not all of it? Is there some sort of inverse fair use rule where content can be edited out as long as it isn't all edited out?
     
  19. Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

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    Why wouldn't HopSkip be precise? And I only implied that people would not see any fragment of commercials, as I didn't know for sure. In any event, people would potentially see fragments of only the first and/or last spots.

    Your second statement reaches for the absurd in a seeming attempt to argue with me. I didn't opine as to legal fine points, nor would I have ever indicated what you do via your questions. The answer in the respective cases is it wouldn't, and no.
     
  20. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Each market has their own feeds recorded with different backhauls and delays. It is pretty close but the cues must be intentionally off by design so that the show itself is shown in all markets - even if it costs a couple of seconds of commercials in other markets.

    It would be nice not to hear people who do not have AutoHOP trying to be the experts on describing how the thing operates. Not specifically you, but there seem to be a lot of "experts" telling me my receiver that actually has AutoHOP on it works differently than I know it actually does.

    It is absurd that skipping 28 seconds of commercial at a time is fine but skipping an entire break (or nearly all of it) is somehow illegal. A skip is a skip. Would it appease those who think AutoHOP is illegal if the user had to press one button every break? Where is the line?

    Those that are saying AutoHOP is illegal seem to be choosing an arbitrary line where skipping commercials is legal unless it is done so well that one can skip nearly all commercials with a press of one button per show. Either skipping is illegal or not. And if it is illegal, watch out non-Hopper DVR users ... the networks will be coming for your skip button next!
     
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