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Dish AutoHop vs Networks Commercial Skipping Discussion

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by phrelin, May 15, 2012.

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  1. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    Says who? (Besides you)


    Also, notice that only the line I'm responding to is quoted, not the entire post.
     
  2. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303296604577452332545810776.html?mod=ITP_marketplace_0
     
  3. Omahabrownie

    Omahabrownie New Member

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    I am new here but I have taken sometime and read thru all of the post. And like everyone else I find I have my own opinions on some of these topics.

    1. No matter what you say the hopper is still fast forwarding thru the commercial not skipping them. And it is my choice not dishes, dish has a software program on the hopper and by using it I am choosing to fast forward past the commercials. With the older VCR's we saw a fast forward thru the tape and it was slow, on the Hopper it is still fast forwarding from a start point to an end point on the disk of the hard drive, the read head on the hard drive still has to pass over the unwanted data, true it can do it very fast but it is still fast forwarding not skipping. But again by using the feature I have said I want to fast forward over the commercials.

    2. When someone buys a commercial time slot during a network program, it is only promised to be shown once at the promised time not again later. I think most of us watch a percent of our show live and wade thru mostly poor commercials. What they broadcast has not been free for the majority of us for a long time. When satellite and cable came along they chose to charge a fee for them to provide their service to us the consumer. At that time it no longer was free it became a paid for service for us. And as a paid service I feel I have the right to record what I have paid for and watch it later how I want to watch it. Do we see them telling us what percent of the cost of the shows they show are paid for by these fees? The networks have many revenue streams that pay for their shows and commercials in the shows are only one of them. The majority of the people out there getting a Hopper have already had a DVR of some sort so the difference in the amount of commercials not watched will be very minimal.

    3. The networks are making lots of money and it wouldn’t surprise me if all of this blustering and spending a few million on lawyers isn’t seen by them as a way to excuse a jump in prices. Maybe they need to spend a little less for the big stars on these shows, if it’s a good show it will be watched whether it has high paid stars or not.
     
  4. Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    First, :welcome_s to DBSTALK!

    Hard drives are random-access devices (like a record player, the read head can move from place to place without reading everything in between.) In contrast, a VCR is a sequential-access device. With Auto Hop, it's presumed that the read head is honoring a request to go to a later file segment.

    I understand your points, but actually you have a fairly specific license to watch the program under specific circumstances. Several cases have ruled that recording a program, either in your home or in on a central server, is not in and of itself copyright infringement, and neither is manually manipulating the recording (such as fast forwarding.) However, you don't have an unlimited license to watch the program any way you want. You can't, for example, charge admission; you can't bring your DVR to a public place; you can't alter the programming and re-sell it.

    In the end I don't think this case is going to hinge on a person's right to do what he wants while watching. I think it will be decided by very minute factors of how Auto Hop does what it does. The technology itself may infringe upon patents or copyrights, whether or not the user experience does.
     
  5. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    You can run it through a video editing program and permanently delete commercials as long as it's for your own personal use later.

    If Dish were actually deleting commercials as some here have suggested so that they were not available to the home viewer at all, there might be a case.
     
  6. Herdfan

    Herdfan Well-Known Member

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    Teays...
    Just a guess, but my prediction is that whatever broadcast flag the DVR is using to activate AutoHop is not licensed for what Dish is using it for, and that will be the basis for the arguments.
     
  7. phrelin

    phrelin Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    Northern...
  8. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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  9. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Dish does not have permission to alter the program that they are reselling. Stuart's post has a longer explanation of that fact.

    You and everyone else don't see dish marking the program or choosing marks that are in it to their liking, and choosing what parts to skip as them altering the program that the consumer sees. I do. They are altering the viewing stream from the original format themselves, rather than letting the consumer actually do it. Moreover, I also assert that if they win this, any ruling would give dish rights to alter any part of the programing, not just skipping commercials. That's why I don't think dish can win.

    The idea that the customer has to agree to it is what makes it ok is not logical. Thats like saying the the car dealer that is leasing me my car said I could break the speed limit to the cop that pulled me over for speeding. That's not how it works.
     
  10. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Retrans agreements and copyrights that where worked out eons ago. Stuart says it well in his post.

    Now if they go change all those, then we have a totally different story.
     
  11. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    I read it as he's saying "We'll turn AutoHop off on channels that reduce the retrans fees".


    Or something like that.
     
  12. Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    Another way of looking at this... and I'm not saying I agree, but:

    If Auto Hop is an exclusive feature of Hopper, and;
    If Hopper carries a price premium, and;
    If the program "as presented to the consumer" is substantively different (because it has no commercials);

    then:

    it's a copyright violation because DISH is, in effect, charging for altered programming.

    I personally am not sure I see it that way but I am not an intellectual property attorney.
     
  13. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I like Stuart, but please do not confuse any opinion here with fact. No one has offered a link to the specific law.

    You may also want to read his posts ... last I saw he believed that DISH would win and what DISH is doing is not illegal. Stuart believes that DISH will lose when it comes to renewing retransmission agreements - not that DISH is actually breaking some law.

    You don't like what DISH is doing or could do with the technology. Fine. If you ever get a DISH receiver with that feature don't use it. If DirecTV releases the feature on their receivers (using the ReplayTV patent) don't use it.

    Not liking something does not make it illegal.

    That statement assumes the speed limit is the law. There is no law against a consumer skipping commercials. (At least not yet.)

    If you want to slippery slope DISH's feature into something more than it is you must accept slippery slope arguments for a DISH loss. If DISH loses the ability for a customer to skip commercials is at risk.
     
  14. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    That would make more sense, and I can see that as an end game, but he'd have to win in court, and how much money can he spend on the lawsuits before any gain he might think he can get won't be lost to the lawyers? (which I don't believe any network will ever go for anyway, they'll just drop dish because they will not be willing to lower their revenue for dish, it'd set a bad precedence)
     
  15. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    So what, you hate me then??? :D

    I love the feature. I have no issue with what dish is doing from a technology standpoint. I just don't think they have the right to do it without permission from the broadcasters, which they do not have.

    I read him as saying that people can't repackage a program and resale it in a different form. That is what dish is doing IMHO, without permission.

    Breaking a contract or retransmission rules is illegal.
     
  16. Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    Wrong again, inkahauts! I did not come anywhere close to saying that. It has become increasingly apparent that you just don't know what you are talking about. Your illogical post immediately above, in response to my earlier post which I have also shown above tells me that, at some point in your mental processing of the technicalities of AutoHop, your train of thought got derailed. I know you believe what you believe, but that does not necessarily make what you believe, right.

    Either that, or you're (not your) right and everyone else is wrong. How can that be?
     
  17. Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    Wrong again! Breaking a contract is called 'breach of contract' and as such, is not illegal, per se, but rather a civil matter between the parties to the contract.

    Never try to outfox an old fox. :D
     
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Why would a ban on AutoHOP be in a contract written before AutoHOP was revealed? If you believe this violates retransmission rules, cite the rule violated.

    In addition, explain what you glossed over a few posts back when you said that AutoHOP would be legal if the customer had to press skip every break (similar to the multi skip that many DVR users do at each break but a one button per break convenience) but is illegal if the customer does not have to press skip at each break (choosing AutoHOP at the beginning of playback). Where is that fine line defined in the law?
     
  19. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    You are confusing viewing with presentation.

    We're not allowed to present the programming at all. We can most certainly view it at 3x speed (or backward) if the hardware supports it.
     
  20. phrelin

    phrelin Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    OK. This seems bigger than I thought. While patting themselves on the back, The Hollywood Reporter reports (emphasis added):
    Has anyone been able to find copies of any filings?

    EDIT: Yeah, I caught the general discussion of Sling before, but PTAT with Sling seems to create a curious and confusing case regarding the Autohop feature.
     
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