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Dish HD Resolution just 480i?

Discussion in 'DISH™ High Definition Discussion' started by mark8arm, Mar 9, 2006.

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  1. Mar 10, 2006 #41 of 100
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    They have ... but the complaints were based on actual viewing not on someone telling viewers that PQ was bad based on a number. That's why I mention "SD Lite" ... which has been the standard for DBS since the beginning.

    PQ issues on SD are caused by compression. Some channels are overcompressed when E* receives them - others need tweaking from time to time to make sure they have enough bits available for acceptable PQ. But at least the complaints are based on actual viewing.
     
  2. Mar 10, 2006 #42 of 100
    AcuraCL

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    Like "Boring Lite"?
     
  3. Mar 10, 2006 #43 of 100
    Slordak

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    Once again, James stands up for ridiculous Dish policies.

    The other month, it was the "We can only supply Universal HD to MPEG-4 customers, oh wait, we lied, we meant we only WANT to supply it to MPEG-4 customers", and now it's the argument that anything over 480i/480p must be "HD" by definition, so it doesn't matter whether Dish sends full 1080i or not? It matters to me, and presumably to others as well.
     
  4. Mar 10, 2006 #44 of 100
    mitch672

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    HD sets are getting better, bigger and cheaper. 1080I sets are now comming down to the pricing levels of 720P sets of last year.

    The "masses" are going to be getting 1080i sets, in the 50" to 61" range.

    At that size and resolution, HDLite will be clearly seen, even by the masses. Especially the ones who are using OTA HD, and have watched many of the primetime shows, that are broadcast in 1080i.

    Let's hope in the next few years, as MPEG4 is rolled out, that when Dish can they ratchet up the bandwidth/resolution on the HD channels... Or, they might find lots of people cancelling their subscriptions. That would probably not make Charley Ergen non too happy..

    Mitch
     
  5. Mar 10, 2006 #45 of 100
    IowaStateFan

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    I've accused James of being a Dish apologizer before, but I will defend him here. I don't recall anyone ever saying that Dish could only supply UNI HD in MPEG4. From the beginning it was clear that it was a business decision. They will need the bandwidth as locals go online and they had to cut off MPEG2 somewhere. I also don't recall James supporting that decision, just explaining it. As for HD lite, I think the only thing that Dish is transmitting that way is Voom, and it has been suggested that it is a problem with the signal they are getting from Voom. James has never said, "that anything over 480i/480p must be "HD" by definition, so it doesn't matter whether Dish sends full 1080i or not?" Without putting words in his mouth, I believe what he is saying is that people should use their eyeballs to determine if the PQ is acceptable, not just complaining because the numbers are wrong. There have been many posts here about people seeing a difference where none existed (or vice versa) based on somebody posting that the transmission is "HD lite".
     
  6. Mar 10, 2006 #46 of 100
    harsh

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    I'm not sure I want to see the other side of "fixed" by your definition. I'd rather see an image free of compression artifacts than one is technically "correct" but practically unwatchable.

    DirecTV took your "high road" and their HD PQ has been deemed inferior by most who have compared them.

    Without something decidedly better to compare it to, I'm satisfied with what I have.
     
  7. Mar 10, 2006 #47 of 100
    harsh

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    What medium do you suppose they will turn to for their programming? From what I can gather, Dish's current offering is among the best available.
     
  8. Mar 10, 2006 #48 of 100
    Rogueone

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    nice little resume of programming there Jerry, grats to you!! I'm all with what you are saying, it would be nice to get the full detail even for 480i stuff on my 65" tv. I'm hopeful these lesser pictures are more temporary as we have to admit, we are still all early adopters. HD still hasn't hit the mainstream, and especially in the satellite game, it's not like it's cheap to add more bandwidth :)

    It's my hope, probably pathetic hope, that birds like E10 will replace older ones, while the channel numbers hold fairly steady, so the bandwidth can be bumped once newer birds up up with more to spare. While I admit that hasn't been the case between cable/sat, with the phone companies jumping in with FiOS products and IP TV coming, I suspect we'll see full bandwidth offerings from these newer options soon, which will force the older ones to catch up or die off. One can only hope if one isn't in the "room" where the decisions are made, huh :)
     
  9. Mar 10, 2006 #49 of 100
    Rogueone

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    gotta disagree here. 1080i sets are already some of the, if not the, cheapest big sets out there. No one wants to buy 1080i sets.

    why? um, they are all crt projection sets ;) Digital diplays such as LCD don't do interlacing, everything they do is progressive. So, I'm thinking you mean to say, "he "masses" are going to be getting 1080p sets, in the 50" to 61" range" which I would agree with. Over the next 3 years 720p will be relegated to the cheapest, entry level sets while 1080p becomes the norm for "better" quality units.

    The big problem with 1080p non projection sets is they still aren't the "big" sets yet. But in the 32-45" range, that should be a nice sweet spot for most people interested in HD. And the digital displays are all 1080p, not i :)
     
  10. Mar 10, 2006 #50 of 100
    robill

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    SD is not marketed by bragging about it's picture quality. The entire reason for developing HD was dramatic picture quality.
    My HD-lite complaints are based on actual viewing. The affected VOOM channels have definitely lost their WOW factor.
     
  11. Mar 10, 2006 #51 of 100
    mark8arm

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    Anyone care to help me with my main question? (see below).

     
  12. Mar 10, 2006 #52 of 100
    IowaStateFan

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    It's not??? Tell that to E*. I believe their slogan was something like "100% pure digital quality" a long time before they were doing anything in HD.
     
  13. Mar 10, 2006 #53 of 100
    DP1

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    If this lowering of the resolution on certain channels stays that way for any length of time.. and it's not just the Voom channels but some of the HD Locals that are interlaced (sending out 1440x1080i instead of 1920), I doubt they'll ever go back.

    Oh sure one can dream.. more satellites, better usuage of bandwidth yada yada. But as soon as they find more bandwidth they always find something else to do with it besides increase PQ. Deciding to offer SD Locals across the board. Adding every knitting channel known to man, 25 PPV's, international channels, sports packages, etc.

    Now with HD it'll be the same thing. Having to add more and more Local HD markets. Then when they're done with that roll out, going back and adding the other 4 or 5 or more HD Local channels on average that are missing from each market at first in the HD Local package.

    All the while having to add all the HD cable channels that launch one by one along the way.. not to mention the ones that are already fired up that they havent even gotten aroung to adding yet. Starz! HD, Cinemax HD, etc.

    Then of course HD PPV... more than the 1 token channel. So when they're done with *all* that and more.. if they then have some bandwidth they still dont know what to do with, then maybe.. just maybe they'd look to increase PQ... look to make sure the PQ is the best it can be.

    I wont be holding my breath.
     
  14. Mar 10, 2006 #54 of 100
    mitch672

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    DP1, I think your missing the main point:

    Dish's ultimate goal? Send ALL channels as HD, elliminate SD only version of them, and let the STB's do the "scaling" to the customers resolution.

    That is their ultimate goal, and, it may take until 2009 or 2010 to reach it, because, they will need all of the STB's in use to be MPEG4 to achieve that goal.

    By elliminating duplicated SD/HD channels, and letting the box scale, they will save some of the duplicated bandwidth, even though the HD channels do take more bandwidth than their SD counterparts.

    It will happen, it will just take a very long time...

    mitch

    P.S. Found this interesting Dish HD chart, that has some of the resolutions and some sample bit rates for some of the Dish HD channels: http://www.satelliteguys.us/bfg/dish-hd.htm


     
  15. Mar 10, 2006 #55 of 100
    Steve Mehs

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    The way I look at it is if I spend over $2000 on a TV set that was specifically designed to give me a 'looking through a window' experience and then have to shell out a few hundred bucks for an over priced set to box from a satellite TV company I better get it all full rez. No ED, no HD Lite, I want full 1280 x 720 progressive for Fox and Disney and full 1920 x 1080 interlaced on the rest. Anything else is completely unacceptable.

    Since Voom is providing them in a lower resolution shame on them. Shame on DirecTV as well for dumbing down the HD channels on their end. Technical aspects aside, I've looked over channel grids a few times and have never seen anything that sounds remotely interesting, just a bunch of oddball content that's in HD. Personally I'd rather have the 2 INHD channels then the 21 Voom channels. At least INHD 2 shows a bunch of iMax content and it's in real HD to boot.

    BTW- 100% Pure Digital Picture quality means nothing. Go download a 320 x 240 AVI and select Full Screen on your media player, that's also 100% Pure Digital Picture Quality.
     
  16. Mar 10, 2006 #56 of 100
    mitch672

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    Technology moves on, cable companies have fiber, Verizon has FIOS, competition is good, and, to tell you the truth, I lived with OTA HD only since 1996, until 2004 when I got some Dish HD, and, going back to OTA only is certainly an option for everyone. I can live without the Sopranos in HD, although I would miss Discovery HD.

    There is always another provider. Dish is not the be all and end all of providers.

    I was quiet happy with Voom DBS, for the 6 months I had it.

    mitch

     
  17. Mar 10, 2006 #57 of 100
    DP1

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    I'm not missing any point. My contention is the same thing will happen with HD as happened with SD. If they can shave a little bit on PQ to help their bottom line in other ways, thats what they'll do. And as luck would have it for them it's only hard core people that will whine. And those dont make up a big percentage of their sub base. The same percentage that ranted every other day about the SD PQ and got nowhere.

    Having the PQ be the best it could possibly be was never a main priority when there was "no such thing" as HD and wont be a priority in the future either. Especially when D* and cable will be doing the exact same thing (again as they were in the SD only world).

    Time will tell.
     
  18. Mar 10, 2006 #58 of 100
    mitch672

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    DP1,

    you know, a very large option for a LOT of people?

    How about NO PROVIDER at all.

    Yes, that's correct, OTA HD is very viable, travels further than the analog equivilant, and, you either get a perfect picture, or, no picture at all.

    Most people can live without the cable channels, I know I can, and did for many years. If you really need to get the some cable channels, you can usually get basic cable for $10-$12 month (without a set top box) in most locations, to get some SD cable, you won't get a lot, but you will get some basics.

    Also, the picture quality on SD and HD OTA channels is superb, with CBS surpassing 30Mbps on some HD broadcasts...

    So yeah, lots of people might just put up the old rabbit airs, or resurect their old rooftop antenna (UHF only now needed), and be content with a nice, digital picture from no provider. So let dish keep reducing the bandwidth, if it gets to be unaccaptable, you can always live with OTA HD :)

    When Dish, DirectTV, Cable Systems and FIOS all find they have to compete with free OTA, superb local HD channels, they can choose to increase their bandwidth, to keep their customers, or perish. The free market is very good at making those decisions...

    Mitch
     
  19. Mar 10, 2006 #59 of 100
    CCarncross

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    Since all the others yahoos are too busy fluffing their feathers, I'll give it a shot....

    Do everything in your power to be able to get your networks OTA with an antenna...

    For other channels, cable quality is based on where you live, both in whats offered by your olocal cable provider, and how good the signal is to your house. The only way to answer that question is to visit a neighbor with a nice setup to evaluate cable offerings in your area...

    If you want the most national HD feeds, currently its DISH because of the Voom offerings. They seem to be a little better than Direct for PQ as well currently. I think Direct has the edge for local HD markets...they started first so it makes sense...

    Another very important consideration here is the equipment, just like buying a car or new audio equipment, go out and use offerings from all if you can...your interface to your programming is the GUI and the remote in your hand, if they dont agree with you, you'll never be happy...too many people overlook this...

    The monthly pricing is pretty close for both DBS providers, if others want to quibble over a few bucks a month, they can knock themselves out...if a few bucks a month is gonna make or break the deal, they probably have no business spending their money on tv programming in the 1st place.....

    People spending 2,3,4 k+ dollars on HDTV(s), then they complain to high heaven about a couple of dollars a month for programming(say $36 a year or so), pennywise and pound foolish....
     
  20. Mar 10, 2006 #60 of 100
    James Long

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    How can they lose what they never had? Only four of the Voom channels have been carried by E* at a higher resolution than they are transmitted today. If any of the rest have lost their WOW it is because of other factors (including repeat programming and more HD choices).

    BTW: Voom DBS was not 1920x1080i when they turned of their system. Fortunately E* does transmit several channels in 1920x1080i (which is better than D*).

    One can mope around and say the whole world sucks because Voom cannot deliver 1920x1080i channels to E* or one can be happy that it isn't as bad as the doom and gloom gang lead on. Your choice. I am a happy man.
     
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