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DISH Network Reports Second Quarter 2010 Financial Results

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by James Long, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. Satelliteracer

    Satelliteracer Hall Of Fame

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    Well, yes, they are part of the ARPU equation, but what I was trying to note was that SAC includes costs of hardware, installation, discounts, marketing \ advertising, etc, etc. The hardware costs are a bit different for the two companies as one person was showing that SAC was lower for DISH. I believe, could be wrong, that this is partly due to the DUO solution that DISH has where they need to essentially deploy less hardware on many installations.

    If that is incorrect, my apologies.
     
  2. bnborg

    bnborg Icon

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    It is if they were expecting a substantial gain and planned their butgets accordingly. :rolleyes:
     
  3. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    For a large account DISH would send out less hardware than DirecTV ... basically three receivers max with an additional $34 monthly charge on the account if a customer had three DUO DVRs (the first receiver is included). DISH does not provide more than three receivers leased ... customers must buy their own additional receivers (if desired). With $34 in receiver fees plus the $7 DVR fee one would already be past half way to the average account revenue. DirecTV would charge $25 for the five extra receivers needed to be a six TV home.

    I'd say based on the ARPU that most subscribers don't have three DUOs.

    Less hardware is a toss up ... DISH requires more installation for home run cables to the receivers then relay cables to the 2nd room for each receiver. DirecTV has their SWM. A different topography. It would depend on the install which would be cheaper.
     
  4. DodgerKing

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    No, the difference is even DirecTVs US market still had a net gain, lower churn rate, and better profits.
     
  5. DodgerKing

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    Unfortunately, Q3 WILL be even worse. I, and many others, are predicting Q3 to have an even higher net loss of subs. In fact, I thought this quarter will still have a net gain and Q3 be the first with a net loss.
     
  6. DodgerKing

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    Of course they will lose more, they have about 5 million more subs to begin with. Total number lost in churn is not as good of a measure of percentage/rate of sub loss. If you look at the rate, Direct had about a 1% lower churn rate than Dish.
     
  7. Satman858

    Satman858 New Member

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    All that profit having a 9.1 percent increase, and they still stick it to their subbers with a rate increase. :mad:
     
  8. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    So you have nothing to say to DISH growing at a rate twice that of DirecTV over the past year (5.2% net increase vs 2.5% net increase) other than your own personal prediction that this quarter will be worse? :rolleyes:

    It is a shame that we have to wait three more months for 3Q results. Everyone has their favorite numbers. The death of DISH has been predicted for longer than I've been a customer. History shows those predictions to be shortsighted.
     
  9. phrelin

    phrelin Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    This is a quarterly financial statement. I'm not quite sure why analysts get their undies in a bunch absent some financial catastrophe. First, one has to keep in mind that Dish Network was spun out of the old Echostar effective January 2008 which I thought was a dumb idea at the time. I'm acutely aware of this set of numbers which represent a vast improvement in liquidity IMHO:

    [​IMG]

    Then I rearrange the P&L numbers to make sense out of them like this:

    [​IMG]

    This range of quarters includes the quarter ending in June 2007 which was before The Great Recession, compared with the three subsequent quarters ending in June. Dish seems to have weathered The Great Recession satisfactorily.

    Yes, in the quarter ended March 2008, they had 13,815,000 customers, but that was when folks just started to feel the pain. The fact that as of June 2010 they have 3.6% more customers and a stable P&L to me seems fine for a retails service operation operating in the depths of The Great Recession.

    I'm wouldn't run out and buy shares of Dish simply based on this financial statement. But if I were Charlie, I'd be satisfied. And since everyone likes to have a hobby and Charlie's seems to be lawsuits, the litigation lists in the past three June quarterlies seems to indicate he has been able to keep himself busy.:D

    [​IMG]

    Anyway, unless you are about to make an investment and the choice is between Dish and Direct, there isn't any reason to compare to the two quarterlies. Both businesses appear to be doing fine.
     
  10. DodgerKing

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    How can you get all of that out of a point that was simply about a more accurate way to measure churn? You sound like my wife. I will say one sentence and somehow she thinks I meant five different things. I was not saying anything bad in this post

    As far as growing, I never said anything good or bad. Yes, rate or percentage is also the best way to measure growth as well. Keep in mind, when there are fewer total subs, this means each sub is a greater percentage of a whole. The same total number of subs added to Dish and Direct will translate into a greater percentage for Dish. Yes, it is a good thing, Dish added a lot of subs over the last year.

    I, in no way, am predicting the death for Dish. I am simply predicting next Quarter will be worse. We will come back in three months to see if I am correct. I'll even make you a bet. If I am wrong, I will make a donation to this site. If I am correct, you will donate to a year membership for me. Agreed?
     
  11. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg AllStar

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    I probably would have been a DirecTV customer, but they lost me because they sent a pair of morons to do the installation.

    On the other hand, Dish is on thin ice with me. Their tech support is utterly clueless, and were of no help when I ran not difficulty recently trying to take advantage of a 99 cent On-Demand/PPV order and failing to complete the selection.

    I won't get into details here, but let me say that few companies have been as incompetent. If I could be assured a second DirecTV install attempt might succeed, I'd jump ship — that is if they plan to add the HD version of BBC America in our lifetimes. :)

    Peace,
    Gene
     
  12. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I don't like percentages only, as a measure of growth, without proper context.

    Dish has a little over 14 million subscribers. DirecTV has more than 20 million, but I don't know what that number is.

    IF each company gains 500,000 customers in a quarter, that represents a smaller percentage change for DirecTV than it does for Dish... so if both companies grow by the same quantity, Dish's percentage will be higher.

    Similarly, if both lose 500,000 customers... that will represent a higher percentage of Dish customers than it does for DirecTV. In fact, DirecTV would have to lose almost twice the amount of customers as Dish to be at the same percentage loss.

    So percentage alone doesn't tell me anything.

    I'm reminded of the time a friend of mine was working a job and at evaluation time he got a 5% raise. When he said that wasn't much money, his boss said that he had only gotten a 2% raise so he should be happy with more than twice the raise!

    Of course his boss already made well more than twice what he was making... so that 2% raise was more money in the pocket than my friend's 5% raise.
     
  13. DodgerKing

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    Same token, you cannot rely on raw numbers alone. 500,000 for Dish will have a much greater affect on Dish than 500,000 for Direct
     
  14. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    OK ... stick with raw data ... over the past year DISH has added 253k net customers MORE than DirecTV. The percentages just bring the numbers into focus. DirecTV as the bigger company is EXPECTED to do better, are they not? They didn't.

    DBSTalk is not a gambling website.
     
  15. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    DISH 14.318 million, DirecTV 18.760 million US customers June 30th. You're giving DirecTV too much credit. :)

    Both raw net increase and percentages were provided in my posts where percentages were used.
     
  16. DodgerKing

    DodgerKing Hall Of Fame

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    Never disagreed with that. Again, my point was simply one on the best way to look at numbers, percentage being BETTER in this case. Of course, you must ALSO look at raw numbers as well.

    I do like how you left off the rest of that paragraph were I stated, "As far as growing, I never said anything good or bad," and, "Yes, it is a good thing, Dish added a lot of subs over the last year." You seem to be going out of your way to make it appear that I am saying something else all together.
    Gambling? I was talking about paying money in the form of a membership for me to this site. The money goes to this site, from me if I am wrong and from you if I am correct.
     
  17. DodgerKing

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    You really love to play the spin game. He did not say US subs, he stated total subs. Direct does have more than 20 million subs. Credit is given were it is due. :)
     
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I've read your prior posts and will let the jury decide what you "never" said earlier in the day.
    Personally I'd rather discuss the topic of THIS thread, DISH's quarterly report.
     
  19. Bigg

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    Oh my, you are all making this really complicated.

    One thing to keep in mind is that maybe two years ago, DirecTV surged ahead in HD content, and then they both were even, and now DISH is a little ahead, but not by enough for most consumers to discern.

    Also keep in mind that DISH doesn't effectively compete in DMA 1, most of DMA 30, DMA 52, 57, 80, 83, 94, 157, 170, 176, and 177, which, combined, is almost 9.5% of the US market.

    On the flip side, DISH has a near monopoly over many smaller, rural DMA's where they have LIL's and DirecTV doesn't, or they have HD LIL's and DirecTV doesn't, and where there isn't HFC, FTTH, or FTTN to compete with.

    The real golden age for satellite is really over, however. While both companies, given good technology and management should be able to compete well into the future, their days of continuous net growth are over. Cable has insane triple-play, with many more areas getting a full complement of HD channels, as well as U-Verse offering triple play, and still being a cable competitor. And of course, Fios, albeit having a limited reach, is the one service that is just clearly better than satellite or anything else out there.

    Satellite is suffering in part because of anti-competitive actions by cable companies, namely the "de-bundling" fee that Comcast and others charge on their HSI. DSL is slow, and doesn't reach nearly as far as cable, so the weakness of Satellite's ability to do triple play is really weakening their ability to compete on cost.

    Cable has the technical ability with Docsis 3 and SDV to completely obliterate Satellite's advantage, but it doesn't look like most cable companies will actively do that anytime soon.

    That being said, cable companies are often still slow to upgrade and expensive, so if satellite innovates with new features and programming, it will be able to compete in non-Fios areas for years to come.

    On installation, DISH has Eastern Arc, which is definitely helping in areas like New England that have a gazillion trees, and have great LOS for EA, but pretty much no LOS for DirecTV's 110 and 119 satellites (depending on DMA).

    The 2-tuner boxes aren't any different for installation, they just cut down on the number of boxes needed. DirecTV puts a splitter at the home-run point for SWiM, while DISH would feed DP up the line to the box, and de-diplex the backfed TV2. The real difference is DISH may need multiple lines from the Dish, whereas DirecTV just needs one. DISH gets a lot more complicated for the consumer, since DISH only carries some locals in HD, requiring the use of an antenna on a separate cable or to give up the backfeed if they want all their locals in HD. Also, some homes may have improperly wired cable, where the satellite installer has to run new wires.

    EDIT: It's also not a surprise that the ARPU's are where they are. An average of AT250 makes sense... a lot of people don't need more than AT120, which is the equivalent of cable's expanded basic, but with a 500GB DVR and HD.
     
  20. Jhon69

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    What would be the cost difference for DirecTV when the installer installs refurbs in a new install?.It would seem to me that would lower the costs even cheaper.
     

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