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Dish sues FCC over PBS-HD requirement

Discussion in 'DISH™ High Definition Discussion' started by HarveyLA, Jun 26, 2010.

  1. Jul 11, 2010 #61 of 232
    TulsaOK

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    I get it OTA. Three words for you - it looks great. :)
     
  2. Jul 12, 2010 #62 of 232
    phrelin

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    Sigh. I'm green with envy.
     
  3. Jul 12, 2010 #63 of 232
    Bigg

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    We also are served by three DMA's (NYC, Hartford-New Haven, and Providence), and the Hartford-New Haven DMA serves all of CT plus Long Island, Rhode Island, and Western Mass. Those are not the actual DMA lines, but that is where the OTA signals are able to be received.

    Basic cable has locals in HD, because they are Clear QAM. Add an MCE PC to that, and you have a clear QAM DVR.

    I thought it was mostly a satellite capacity issue, not negotiations. How are the content providers able to require a re-negotiation, when DISH already carries the signal- it's just cut-off and downrez'ed? What's the different between the full feed and the cut-off and downrez'ed version? Does the current contract stipulate a maximum amount of the screen, and a maximum number of pixels that they can carry?
     
  4. Jul 12, 2010 #64 of 232
    phrelin

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    Satellite capacity is an issue, certainly up until this year a significant issue. But my perspective on the matter is skewed.

    Here in the San Francisco DMA it was a major affront to my sense of justice that without adding the award winning PBS station KQED HD, Dish willingly agreed to waste HD bandwidth on the now bankrupt Young Broadcasting station KRON, a crappy MyNetwork affiliate that many longer term residents have a grudge against because of history.:mad:

    Since the contracts are not public documents that I can find, I have no idea what's in them. I think language in contracts like this have been developing.

    For instance, my guess is that the Disney contracts contained some fuzzy language that made Dish think it was worth risking carrying the HD channels they are now fighting over in court. That fuzzy language probably won't appear in any future contracts.

    I would assume that HBO and HDNet have some significant technical language related to quality.

    But who, other than Charlie and his legal team, knows what's in all those contracts?:confused:
     
  5. Jul 12, 2010 #65 of 232
    HarveyLA

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    That is one complicated question!

    It is a two-tiered, if not three-tiered situation. There are certain must carry rules that Dish must follow for local stations, that do not apply to HD. Then there is the timetable by which they must provide all stations in local markets in HD. Then there is the recently passed STELA that speeded that up for noncommercial stations in HD. Negotiations are not necessarily involved, although Dish has a few weeks left to reach a private agreement on carrying noncommercial stations in HD (pending outcome of the court hearing.)
    What would they negotiate, and why? We wouldn't know until or unless it happens. My thought is that both sides would benefit from an agreement specifying a certain number of top markets to be added first. As stated earlier in this thread, the PBS stations can not negotiate carriage for money, but can only negotiate to request carriage. That is the FCC rule relating to cable, so it presumably applies to satellite as well. There has been some speculation in this thread that APTS is negotiating for carriage of subchannels. Dish, in the STELA law, is only required to carry the main channel.

    As far as the issue of satellite capacity versus negotiations is concerned,
    Dish maintains it does not have the satellite capacity to meet the STELA requirements, although congresswoman Eshoo indicated the issue was mostly about negotiations, during hearings last October:

    The bill's sponsor, Rep. Anna Eshoo (D-Calif.), countered that noncommercial stations and Dish had been negotiating for three years without success and that the government needed to step in to spur the process. She said if the two sides could come to an agreement before the bill passed, the amendment would "melt away." She said that Dish in its negoatiations had already said it could speed up the HD rollout.
     
  6. Jul 12, 2010 #66 of 232
    Paul Secic

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    And don't forget Lawrence Welk! PBS must have a long term contract with the syndication CO. That show has been on PBS for 35 years at least.
     
  7. Jul 12, 2010 #67 of 232
    Greg Bimson

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    So let's start with this one, first.

    All PBS (and other non-comm channels) are on Dish Network in SD because of must-carry. There is no contract, per se. The stations simply declare must-carry, and Dish Network then must provide them.

    Of course, Dish Network tried to get must-carry ruled unconstitutional back in 2001, mainly because they didn't have the capacity for additional non-comms back then.
    There is something in the law that allows for SD as a downconvert of HD to fulfill the must-carry requirement. So all Dish Network would need to do is downrez the broadcast signal and be in compliance with must-carry. STELA is providing for "must-carry" in HD for non-comms, which is why there is a required renegotiation. Or more technically, no negotiation is required, and then Dish Network would be required by law to have both SD and HD channels available for non-comms.
     
  8. Jul 12, 2010 #68 of 232
    James Long

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    It is simpler than than. All non-commercial stations are defined as must carry ... nothing to declare.

    They are carrying the primary feed of the channel, as required. They were not yet required (pre-STELA) to offer every channel carriage in HD. The FCC had some goals but STELA changed the timetable and created a law.

    DISH would not be required to provide a SD feed to a customer who can receive the HD feed. But in essence both are required as DISH still has SD customers. The difference would be Eastern Arc where DISH typically ends the provision of a SD feed when that local channel's HD feed is made available.

    The HD must carry only applies in markets where any local channel is carried in HD ... HD non-comms are not required in SD only markets. Carriage is also phased in however all NEW HD markets (after STELA enacted) require the immediate addition of the HD non-comms.

    And while I understand that meeting the deadline may be difficult DISH needs to get with it. Either make the deal that would relieve the pressure to put up every market or add PBS in all HD markets meeting the deadlines. DISH should be able to find enough markets to meet the percentage deadlines without running out of bandwidth.
     
  9. Jul 12, 2010 #69 of 232
    Greg Bimson

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    I am remembering something regarding the Lehigh Valley PBS station and the Philadelphia market somewhere around 2005. I remember DirecTV dropped the channel over the fact that the "must-carry" paperwork wasn't filed with DirecTV, but an agreement was reached within a month to get the channel available for Philadelphia-market DirecTV subscribers.

    The "declaration" of must-carry may be passive, but the stations must actively file their paperwork with the satellite company to assert their rights in order to be carried.
    Right, and that was my point. PBS in SD is avaialble because of the laws currently on the books, and the law allows for these downconverts to maintain must-carry. There isn't some kind of carriage agreement which discusses downconverts; it is just a part of the law.
    True, but even then, that means Dish Network customers would fall into three basic, distinct categories:

    Eastern Arc, where HD customers pointing to the eastern slots are receiving a set of HD and HD locals;
    Western Arc, where HD customer would be pointing to the western slots and are receviing a mixture of locals;
    SD customers, who are still only pointed to 110/119 and have a full slate of SD networks

    And until there aren't anymore SD-only subscribers (and that would take a while), the locals on Eastern Arc (and Western Arc, once available) would also be duplicated in SD from the core slots.

    Edit: I know there are more subcategories, but my main point is until all SD-only service is the way of the dodo, duplication will have to continue.
     
  10. Jul 13, 2010 #70 of 232
    Bigg

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    So you're saying DISH isn't negotiating to get PBS, but PBS is negotiating to get bandwidth on DISH? If this is the case, why doesn't PBS provide DISH with the right to blast out WNET and a couple other big ones as CONUS?

    Also, aren't the subchannels just simulcasts that could be carried CONUS anyways? I know CONUS HD is sort of a big deal, but a few channels of CONUS SD can't possibly mean anything to DISH?

    This is really a waste of the government's time, however. They should just send people a link to Antennasdirect.com . LIL's are still going to suck, no matter what the government mandates, as they are double re-encoded in some cases.

    EA is not duplicated, as all EA receivers can do the downconversion locally.
     
  11. Jul 13, 2010 #71 of 232
    HarveyLA

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  12. Jul 13, 2010 #72 of 232
    Greg Bimson

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    You are forgetting who owns the rights. PBS cannot "provide DISH with the right to blast out WNET and a couple other big ones as CONUS". PBS doesn't own WNET. PBS doesn't own any stations.
    I believe that's basically what DirecTV did within their agreement with APTS.
    It could be a waste to some, but no more wasteful than broadcasting a set of locals in MPEG4 from one satellite cluster and broadcasting those same locals in MPEG2 from another.

    Besides, the government already wasted their time passing the law. It isn't much of a waste defending it, as it won't be hard to say passage of the bill was constitutonal.
     
  13. Jul 14, 2010 #73 of 232
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It looks like DISH may add the PBS HDs to the unreleased markets ... which means new HD markets when all this is made available ...


    New Uplinks / Mappings - Channels NOT Available
    5274 WCES (20 HD) WRENS, GA (PBS) added to 119° 3sA17 (Greenville) (HD Augusta, GA market *TEST* Hidden)
    5275 WEBA (14 HD) ALLENDALE, SC (PBS) added to 119° 3sA17 (Greenville) (HD Augusta, GA market *TEST* Hidden)
    6565 KTVZD (12) BEND, OR (NBC) added to 129° 15s10 (Central Oregon) (SD Bend, OR market *TEST* Hidden) OTA Mapping (12-02)
    5194 KQIN (36 HD) DAVENPORT, IA (PBS) added to 77° TP 6 (HD Davenport, IA/Rock Island, IL market *TEST* Hidden)
    5195 WQPT (24 HD) MOLINE, IL (ETV) added to 77° TP 6 (HD Davenport, IA/Rock Island, IL market *TEST* Hidden)
    5274 WNIN (12 HD) EVANSVILLE, IN (PBS) added to 77° TP 13 (HD Evansville, IN market *TEST* Hidden)
    5275 WKOH (31 HD) OWENSBORO, KY (PBS) added to 77° TP 13 (HD Evansville, IN market *TEST* Hidden)
    5284 WMUM (29 HD) COCHRAN, GA (PBS) added to 77° TP 16 (HD Macon, GA market *TEST* Hidden)
    5284 KLTM (13 HD) MONROE, LA (PBS) added to 77° TP 14 (HD Monroe, LA market *TEST* Hidden)
    5285 KETZ (12 HD) EL DORADO, AR (PBS) added to 77° TP 14 (HD Monroe, LA market *TEST* Hidden)
    5155 WSIU (8 HD) CARBONDALE, IL (PBS) added to 77° TP 18 (HD Paducah, KY/Harrisburg, IL market *TEST* Hidden)
    5265 KYIN (24 HD) MASON CITY, IA (PBS) added to 119° 5sA07 (Sioux Falls) (HD Rochester, MN/Mason City, IA market *TEST* Hidden)
    5264 KLTS (24 HD) SHREVEPORT, LA (PBS) added to 119° 1sA13 (Shreveport) (HD Shreveport, LA market *TEST* Hidden)
    5264 KPTS (8 HD) HUTCHINSON, KS (PBS) added to 119° 4sB09 (Oklahoma City) (HD Wichita, KS market *TEST* Hidden)
     
  14. Jul 14, 2010 #74 of 232
    HarveyLA

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    That is only because DISH is required to do so under the newly passed STELA.
     
  15. Jul 14, 2010 #75 of 232
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The point is that DISH has been holding off on the release of these markets and sued to get the PBS-HD requirement waived.

    It appears that DISH has relented and has decided to add PBS-HDs (as STELA required) instead of waiting for a court victory.
     
  16. Jul 15, 2010 #76 of 232
    lparsons21

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    So now that all the Paducah, Ky DMA channels are uplinked and the HD is in place, any wild clue as to when they will become actually viewable by us poor customers?

    As one vulture said to the other ' patience my A$$, I'm gonna kill something ' :)
     
  17. Jul 15, 2010 #77 of 232
    James Long

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    Usual answer: "Soon".

    I'm surprised that these markets were not turned on last night. They have been a long time in coming.
     
  18. Jul 15, 2010 #78 of 232
    l8er

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    [pedantic on]

    Must be one confused vulture. Since they're scavengers they don't kill anything, they only eat what gets left behind by other animals or humans (prey, roadkill, etc.). So the "punchline" makes no sense at all.

    [/pedantic off]
     
  19. Jul 15, 2010 #79 of 232
    James Long

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    That's the point. He's so hungry he could kill instead of waiting for something to die or be killed by some other creature.

    It's like a vegetarian barbecuing hamster. It is a funny thing to say because it is unexpected.
     
  20. Jul 15, 2010 #80 of 232
    lparsons21

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    Me too! When they turn them on, I'll have to call to get switched to EA as they are on 77 and none of us here are.
     

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