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DRM Protection coming to Dish??

Discussion in 'DISH™ High Definition Discussion' started by DBS Commando, Nov 26, 2007.

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  1. Dec 1, 2007 #41 of 104
    texaswolf

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    True enough...they will never stop hackers and pirates.....$ony and the MPA can pay all they want to pay "brains" to come up with encryption techniques ....while a 15 year old sits at home and cracks them in half for free...and then works on his next virus to beat up a Microsoft product....resistance is futile.
     
  2. Dec 1, 2007 #42 of 104
    rcoleman111

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    Right now, if Dish or DirecTV were to go along with content producers' demands that they enforce DRM through their integrated DVRs, all I would have to do is switch over to cable and get a CableCard and Tivo HD. I would then have capabilities that I don't have right now, even without DRM being enforced on DirecTV's DVR. I could not only record shows and keep them as long as I like, I could also transfer the recordings to a PC and even burn them to DVDs. And their isn't anything the content producers could do about it, since they have no way of forcing Tivo to comply with their DRM restrictions.

    The popularity of integrated DVRs is what has emboldened the content producers. They think they can leverage that to enforce their DRM, but it will only cause a shift to standalone devices, which are made by companies that aren't dependent on the content. That's one of the reasons I like the to see technologies like CableCard, which are intended to separate the DVR from the TV service provider.

    Whatever kind of DRM schemes these media giants come up with, there is always going to be a way around it. They are fighting a losing battle.
     
  3. Dec 5, 2007 #43 of 104
    dmspen

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    Actually there are ways. I have a video processor that accepts almost any type of video signal. It con upconvert, downconvert, etc and output at most resolutions through HDMI. It can also output component, S Video, etc. I could take a 1080p hdmi input and output a 1080i component signal.

    But why? DISH shouldn't do this. Oh, and video processors cost as much as TVs.:eek2:

     
  4. Dec 5, 2007 #44 of 104
    Moridin

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    Sounds nice in theory, but the problem is that cable companies aren't exactly playing nice when it comes to CableCard. Time Warner, for example, has roughly 70% of their HD channels residing on a switched network that CableCards cannot address, and every new HD channel they add lives on this switched network. They're able to get around the FCC rules on CableCards by marketing these new channels as "free with a TW HD STB".
     
  5. Dec 5, 2007 #45 of 104
    GrumpyBear

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    DRM in our DVR's will become real, if Blu-Ray wins out over HD-DVD. This will give Sony its extra leverage with all the other Content companies. The only reason that Sony's HDMI only for HD (HDMI1.2a version is where the standard was created,I believe) there are competetors, ie HD-DVD, that wont enforce it, the same DRM tech. Where HDMI is a group of Companies, it was Sony's idea to try to enforce this DRM downconverting.
    Reading over that post from the Satguys site, almost sounds like a installer has found away to make a little extra cash during a install, as HDMI cables are 1. NOT INCLUDED, and 2. EXPENSIVE, for the enduser- lots of markup profit in those cables.
     
  6. Dec 5, 2007 #46 of 104
    phobos512

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    I hate to take things out of context but in this case I just can't resist.

    Riiiiiiiiight, because MICROSOFT doesn't mind people pirating their stuff. You've heard of Windows Genuine Advantage right? Well, imagine Microsoft HD Advantage.
     
  7. Dec 5, 2007 #47 of 104
    Moridin

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    To be fair, Microsoft was the lead entity in lobbying for a 1-2 year moratorium on enforcing the Image Constraint Token over analog connections in the HD-DVD camp, after which point the BluRay camp agreed to the same.
     
  8. Dec 5, 2007 #48 of 104
    GrumpyBear

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    Not to start a Pissing war here, but Sony has over and over and over again, tried to control both Music and Video. Each has failed or been cracked to prove how bad it was, long live the Sharpie. Yes Microsoft, APPLE, SUN, HP, and so on, Heck, EVERYBODY THAT SELL's software, protects their software. Sony wants to do even more, you don't see Mr. Bill, adding in all sorts of so called content protection into HDMI, and trying to force an entire industry to use that technology, or adding spy software onto CD's, creating 0 tracks to prevent tracking and so on.

    Sony has a track record of this, and As a Major Studio, and "if" Blu-Ray wins out over HD-DVD, Sony will have even more to pressure others to follow there lead on this. So even if Toshiba, Microsoft, Intel and the rest win out with HD-DVD, Mr. Bill owns NO Movie or TV company, neither do the rest of them. They wont be pushing for DRM that throttles us down to nothing. Sony will Throttle US, with yes you pay for, yes you own it, but you will only watch it, and copy it, and save it the way we want you too, as its really ours. The non Studio companies could care less, as they have nothing to lose how you copy, store or watch your Video's.

    I love how Sony and Disney(another control freak company)now say their movies are HD DVD's, using BluRay.
     
  9. Dec 5, 2007 #49 of 104
    Ron Barry

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    Ok... Lets not turn this into a Bashing Sony thread or and HD-DVD/Blue Ray thread.... I have my personal opinions on MS, Sony, and others in relation to protecting their IP. Sony is by no means the only bad guy here so in context of this thread and DRM is not just a concept driven by one company. It is a industry issue that may start effecting Set top boxes so lets keep this thread focused there.

    this is an industry wide issue that effects both Music and video. Both of these segments in my opinion are not changing with the times and instead of changing their business model to meet the change in landscape they have chosen to protect there model through trying to control the distribution model. To me... it is not a good thing and hopefully it will eventually be realized.

    I mean you go to a theater. By 10 bucks to watch a movie. You have a commercial telling you how bad software piracy is hurting all, and then you sit through 1 and 30 minutes of time that in a lot cases you want back because the movie was so poorly done.... The key to this problem is not at the DRM end it is at the value/cost end. They need to start given more bang for the buck and make it easier for people to get the product they want and a reasonable price.

    DRM in my opinion usually give the Average Joe the pain while the bad guys always find ways around it.... So why do it? These two industry rathering trying their best be more creative, want to spend the efforts on the false notion that they can protect there content while providing the desired experience to the people supporting the industry.
     
  10. Dec 5, 2007 #50 of 104
    GrumpyBear

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    They will try to inforce some kind of DRM, to force the Avg Joe, to pay more for something, when the bad guys will get it for free. Problem is more Avg Joe's than bad guys, so they will make more money, all they while complaining its the hackers casuing the issue. Case in point, Napster, Napster was killing them in lost sales, or so they said, even though Records were selling like hot cakes( all time highs as a matter of a fact), they close down Napster and shortly there after Records sells fall. The idea that Piracy is costing them money is a crock. MOST people, the Majority want to own there music, and Video's. Napsters at its high point, opened up more sells, as people were willing to try something for free, say hey this is good, and then go out and buy it.
    Some people would rather spend a dollar to make $10, some would rather spend $10 to keep from losing the dollar. Music industry and the Movie Studies are now following, would rather Spend the $10 to save that dollar, and just don't get it, as they are so out of touch. (Granted they both have the same major player:p ) it is a INDUSTRY greed issue though.
     
  11. Dec 5, 2007 #51 of 104
    tomcrown1

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    Everyone STOP IT ----Dish is not going to force everyone to use HDMI---as far as DRM is concered this is not Dish's call it is up to the content provider.
     
  12. Dec 5, 2007 #52 of 104
    GrumpyBear

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    I agree, it wont be DISH or even D* that will force DRM, it will be the content providers, who don't understand open standards are better than proprietary standards. Proprietary standards almost always fail, and with luck we will never have to worry about it.
     
  13. Dec 7, 2007 #53 of 104
    rcoleman111

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    And again, there are always ways around it. If the content owners haven't been able to enforce DRM with the supposedly super-secure encryption on Blu-ray and HD DVD, why does anyone think they will be any more successful with DVRs? I don't believe Dish and DirecTV will even agree to anything like that, but if they do it will be their own downfall.
     
  14. Dec 7, 2007 #54 of 104
    rcoleman111

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    There are workarounds for just about anything. Read the following:

    http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9823095-7.html

    CableCard is a federal mandate and it isn't going away. Its intent is to allow consumers to buy whatever set-top boxes and DVRs offer the best features instead of being tied to what the cable company offers.
     
  15. Dec 7, 2007 #55 of 104
    James Long

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    Individuals conspiring to defeat the encryption of other content sources is not E* and D*'s problem. Providers who refuse to allow their content to be released via E* or D* because of a lack of DRM is the problem. E* and D* are just putting the tools in place so they can continue to offer the content that their customers expect - even if it means that they will lose a few viewers due to problems with HDCP.

    Better to lose a few with "incompatible TVs" than not be able to sell the content at all.
     
  16. Dec 7, 2007 #56 of 104
    rcoleman111

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    If it were as simple as you make it sound - content providers demanding that Dish and DirecTV implement their DRM and those companies meekly complying - they would have done it already. The giant media companies have been trying to regain control of how people use their TVs since the first VCRs hit the market 30 years ago. They are trying to put a genie back in the bottle and it just isn't going to work.

    Individuals "conspiring" to defeat DRM may not be E* and D*'s problem, but loss of millions of unhappy customers certainly is. The satellite companies are already facing major technical challenges in competing with cable. How do you think those millions of viewers who are now accustomed to recording shows on their DVRs would react if they suddenly found that commercials couldn't be skipped because of DRM or that shows were being deleted before they had time to watch them? Would they meekly accept that outcome, or would they start looking at alternatives? I think the answer to that is obvious. Much as I dislike cable, if I ever find that my DVR doesn't work the way it's supposed to because DirecTV has implemented content companies' DRM schemes, I will be out the door so fast it will make your head spin.
     
  17. Dec 7, 2007 #57 of 104
    rcoleman111

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    Using a CableCard and standalone Tivo hardly constitutes a conspiracy.
     
  18. Dec 7, 2007 #58 of 104
    bobukcat

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    I agree with you, but I think that a vast majority of cable/sat subscribers are going to accept the functionality of the STB or DVR the cable company provides for them. If this weren't the case Tivo's subscription numbers would certainly be much higher because all the people using crappy Motorola or other DVRs would have jumped ship already. People that read this forum, and others like it, are a very small minority of the total cable/sat subscribers, the majority are ingnorant of their choices.
     
  19. Dec 7, 2007 #59 of 104
    Moridin

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    Yeah, I had read that. This new device is still not part of the CableCard spec, and so cable operators are not required to offer it. Also, the original press release I read from Tivo stated that the device will not be offered for purchase, but will be leased/rented from the cable providers.

    Hopefully it will work great and be universally available, though.
     
  20. Dec 7, 2007 #60 of 104
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It takes time for technology to catch up. Perhaps D* and E* have been delaying it but there are such things as deadlines.

    A lot has changed over those 30 years ... we are now much closer to a point where end to end control is possible and enough equipment is in the marketplace that providers are willing to take the risk of losing viewers in exchange for gaining control.

    Hopefully the content owners won't get that tight on their controls ... but the choice will come down to have the content WITH DRM or not have the content at all. Which is a wash when it comes to customers who can't or won't accept the limits of DRM ... they are gone anyways. The with DRM option allows E* and D* to continue to serve at least some and likely most of their customers instead of NONE.

    And, as a hopefully calming reminder, there are worst case scenarios and best case scenarios. DRM allows for both. It can be as simple as HBO Networks not allowing copying of their content to external devices (allowing moves only to PocketDish or external drives). It can also get much more complex (PPVs having expiration times on playback and storage or perhaps "live only" with no saving of the file on certain PPV events).

    Don't panic. Just because the tool is there does not mean that it will be used.

    I didn't say that particular method was ... it just falls in the range of "outside of D*'s and E*'s problems".

    Hopefully that cablecard solution will continue to work ... but there are no guarantees. Cable systems can simply move the content over to streaming or some other system that is incompatible with that work around.

    It's a battle that content providers have been fighting for 30 years. Do you see them giving up now?
     
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