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Dual Buffers

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by Que, Aug 17, 2006.

Dual Buffers

  1. A must have!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Don't really care about it.

    94.1%
  3. Like the option but, Ok if it's not there.

    5.9%
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  1. Aug 7, 2007 #1161 of 2967
    christo76

    christo76 Godfather

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    Thanks Earl. I will try that. That will help make things a little better until the day DLB is finally installed.
     
  2. Aug 7, 2007 #1162 of 2967
    jheda

    jheda DBSTalk Club Member

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    Important is a conclusion, not an opinion, stated as you have. Everyone respects your opinion. However, everyone decides whats important to them.

     
  3. Aug 7, 2007 #1163 of 2967
    SilverShadow

    SilverShadow New Member

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    Aug 3, 2007
    I've been a DirecTV® customer for about 11 years. I've subscribed to NFL Sunday Ticket™ for the last 10 years or so and have been using a DIRECTV® DVR with TiVo® (a.k.a DirecTiVo, Hughes GXCEBOTD -- which has been fantastic) with dual live buffers for the majority of those.

    About to finally move to HD (triggered by release of new Sony LCD TVs), but the only thing that is keeping me at this point is the lack of dual live buffers with the HR20. For me (and many others I suspect), sports packages without them is simply ridiculous...

    Approximately $250 for NFL Sunday Ticket™ with no way to queue up other games than the one that I'm watching (other than recording the whole thing)? With the difference in timing of the games and dual buffers you can effectively watch lots of games. For example, I always watch the full Packers games and catch various parts of other games while they are playing. Watching them after they are over is a poor option as the tickers during the game would spoils the results for other games. Depending on how games progress, I'll queue up parts of games while others are in halftime. Additionally, I'll queue up the end of a game that's close and constantly toggle between games. As soon as that's over, I'll queue up the end of another game. This can't be effectively done with the workaround of always using dual recordings... ARGH! :icon_lame

    In my opinion, there are two types of value from NFL Sunday Ticket™ (and other sports packages). Watching games for your team when you live "out of market", and being able to bits and pieces of other games as you wish.

    Without Dual Live Buffers, the value of the "other games" is at best, significantly diminished.

    How frustrating... :mad:

    Unfortunately, this is causing me to seriously reconsider being a DirecTV® customer.

    Most frustrating of all is that this is not a difficult feature to incorporate. I am also a software engineer, but you don't have to be one to understand that technically this would be relatively simple.
    1) Already have dual tuners and can record on each at same time (same or different types of streams).
    2) Already have algorithms, routines, methods for live content buffering (revolving door concept).
    3) Hardware limitations aren't an issue, as it would be miniscule amount of processing to "release" disk space used for the second buffer (content more than 30 or 90 minutes old). Hardware contention isn't an issue here as two streams can already be recorded (while a third is played from disk no less).

    It would be hard to believe that not having dual live buffers could be due to patents and potential infringement on the concept. I believe that this could pose a problem for providing one live buffer, which already exists. That is a novel concept. Simply adding an additional one for a second tuner would not make the concept unique.

    In my opinion, this is an example of poor Product Management. As most know, when simplified, there are two primary factors go into selecting features to be implemented. Cost (to implement and maintain) and perceived value (by customer, value added by having it or value reduced by not having an expected feature). On a simple scale, cost related to implementing and supporting dual live buffers is low per points above. Value is at least medium, as there is a revenue impact (see other references in this forum alone) caused by selling less sports packages and losing some potential existing customers. This especially impacts "power" users/customers, which generally spend more on equipment and add-ons (such as on sports packages) and are generally are the most valuable bringing new customers in and converting customers from the competition via "word of mouth" advertising/marketing.

    Anyway, hopefully Product Management is savvy enough to monitor requested features and finally make this happen. If not, I guess I'll change services (and speak my mind to all my friends and family that come to me for advice on technology related stuff such as television service providers). Interesting how one key feature can have such a large impact on some people. :)

    Anyways, just my two cents...


    NFL Sunday Ticket is a registered trademark of the National Football League and its affiliates.
    DirecTV is a trademark or registered trademark of DirecTV, Inc.
    TiVo and the TiVo logo are registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries.
     
  4. Aug 7, 2007 #1164 of 2967
    cygnusloop

    cygnusloop Hall Of Fame

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    Nice first post, SilverShadow.

    And, :welcome_s to DBSTalk!
     
  5. Aug 7, 2007 #1165 of 2967
    SteveHas

    SteveHas Hall of Fame

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    Thank You Silver Shadow.
    This is one of the most intelligent, well thought out, technical arguments I've read here,
    I hope someone listens
     
  6. Aug 7, 2007 #1166 of 2967
    raott

    raott Hall Of Fame

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    Unfortunately, IMO, D*'s DVR product managers have shown zero savy. Both the HR20 and R15 were rushed out, and IMO basic features not working (ie skip-to-tick and DLBs both of which IMO are basic, standard features). Their hands have basically been held by members of this website to get the HR20 to where it is now and to get the R15 stable (which took over a year and is still behind the HR20 in features).

    I keep hearing how they have their reasons why DLB was not included, but those reasons have never been given and publicly shared, and with the product managers track record on other issues, I seriously question the rationale.

    Where was the design for six sigma? D* is catering to sports fans, yet one of the major features on prior D* DVRs (and almost all competitors DVRS) that sports fans used is left off? Do they know and understand their customer CTQ's??
     
  7. Aug 7, 2007 #1167 of 2967
    Chuck584

    Chuck584 AllStar

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    Apr 17, 2007
    I couldn't agree more.

    The more software engineers that speak out, the more people will come to understand there is no substantive reason for not implementing it beyond poor planning and management.
     
  8. Aug 8, 2007 #1168 of 2967
    jhstn58

    jhstn58 Cool Member

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    May 28, 2007
    I could not have stated it better than SilverShadow why I waited until this week to convert from the Tivos to the HR-20s. The NFL sports package is the only reason I still contract with D*. Sunday Ticket will be brutal without being able to flip around various games on the 2nd tuner while watching my Stillerz on the 1st.
     
  9. Aug 8, 2007 #1169 of 2967
    MikeR7

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    Jun 17, 2006
    I guess I still don't understand. I'll watch a Twins game live, pause it, surf around other games or shows and go back to the Twins game and it picks up where I left off. It works fine.
     
  10. Aug 8, 2007 #1170 of 2967
    jaywdetroit

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    Wow. To reiterate and agree, that was a great first post. Welcome to DBSTalk.

    It's well thought out opinions like this, that make DBSTalk such a great Community.

    I do think you should reconsider leaving D*, though I completely agree and sympathize with your attitude here.

    Why don't you do as many enthusiasts have done here at DBSTalk? Keep your DLB Tivo connected to the same TV with your HR20, and cache games on it?

    Or - some here even have two HR20's connected to their main TV. Now - I agree with you that this is a VERY POOR substitute for DLB, but I think we have established that the DLB community is not large enough to effect the pocket books of D*. They know this, and many of us dread, but accept it.

    So if you walk away, you are going to miss out on a great piece of hardware (the HR20) and of course, you lose your Sunday Ticket (ST).

    One thing I will say though - Someone at D* read your post. So whatever you decide to do, it was well worth your time.

    Thanks for your contribution!
     
  11. Aug 8, 2007 #1171 of 2967
    christo76

    christo76 Godfather

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    Sep 12, 2006

    So lets say you switch to a second game and want to see what will happen in the next 5-10 minutes, but right now its either really slow or commercial. Do you record it? Do you simply leave it on that channel, go back to Twins and in 5-10 min come back and rewind, without looking at the score to ruin it? If you record it, what do you do when you want to surf to a third game... stop the record, change channel and after the game remember to erase the 2 or 3 or 8 or more items you recorded for short periods? Yes its possible, but its a hassle.

    Football is a better example because (especially with ST) you can watch 1 game, then when you get a red zone alert, change the 2nd tuner to that game and pause it, rather than sit and wait and hope. And if a second/better alert is up, change to that quickly. Sometimes a red zone means its minutes before any meaningful action, other times its instant. Being able to get to that game right away, w/o having to deal with the HR20 asking you if you want to keep or delete the game you just had on, could easily mean missing a great play and hoping ESPN will show highlights (which is never as good as seeing it live).
     
  12. Aug 8, 2007 #1172 of 2967
    MikeR7

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    Oh, I see where you are coming from now. I don't watch sports that way. Do you think a lot of people do? I know there are quite a few here from all of the postings on it, but it must be a pretty small % of ST viewers. I guess I agree with Jay, not enough people could threaten to cancel ST and/or their DIRECTV service to really affect their direction with the HR20 as of now.

    What I plan on doing is adding a second HR20 downstairs in my rec room in parallel with the one there now. That gives me the capability of recording and watching 4 games at once there. I don't really need to watch all live(except the Vikings). I'm not really one that has to be surprised with every turn in the scoreboard. I just like watching as much football as I can. I can also record at least one more game upstairs(my honey has to have one tuner to watch I guess). Anyway, I feel badly for you guys that have the DLB addiction. Wish there was something I could do to help.

    Oh, I've had one more thought on this issue. I see many DLB addicts throwing negative comments DIRECTV'S way on this issue. I don't know about you but when somebody wants something from me, it is far better to take a more positive approach towards me on the issue, than being negative. The more negative the approach the more I am likely to turn a deaf ear. I think most companies and people are that way by nature. Just a thought. Why they haven't responded with some kind of "official" answer on the issue does puzzle me though.:)
     
  13. Aug 8, 2007 #1173 of 2967
    cygnusloop

    cygnusloop Hall Of Fame

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    I think you are absolutely right, Mike. More flies with honey, than with vinegar. I also think you hit the nail on the head with your statement about the fact that there hasn't been an "official" reason given for the lack of DLB. I, too, have been puzzled by that. It has been insinuated that there is, in fact, a good reason, but D* has chosen not to divulge it here. It is, I think, this lack of communication on this one issue that generates a great deal of frustration on the part of many here, which in turn leads to negative posts and comments.

    There has been an amazing amount of communication and feedback with D* on many, many other issues and new features, yet, on this one we remain in the dark. Maybe one day, it will all be clear. :shrug:
     
  14. Aug 8, 2007 #1174 of 2967
    Earl Bonovich

    Earl Bonovich Lifetime Achiever

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    Yes... one day it will be clear.
     
  15. Aug 8, 2007 #1175 of 2967
    MikeR7

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    When we all get to heaven? Or on Sept 15th?:lol:
     
  16. Aug 8, 2007 #1176 of 2967
    jaywdetroit

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    And if someone forced you to gamble on when that day might be....

    :lol:
     
  17. Aug 8, 2007 #1177 of 2967
    raott

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    If I was betting, my guess is the day VOD launches.
     
  18. Aug 8, 2007 #1178 of 2967
    Earl Bonovich

    Earl Bonovich Lifetime Achiever

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    Keep guessing
     
  19. Aug 8, 2007 #1179 of 2967
    tiger2005

    tiger2005 Godfather

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    Sep 22, 2006
    Most likely when they release the 2nd Generation HR20.
     
  20. Aug 8, 2007 #1180 of 2967
    anubys

    anubys Godfather

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    Jan 19, 2006
    on my birthday? :D :p
     
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