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Echostar-4 Approved to Move East

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by rocatman, Jun 20, 2005.

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  1. rocatman

    rocatman Icon

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    The FCC has approved the move of Echostar-4 to the east. It will either stop at 77 W if the FCC approves Dish's Petition for Reconsideration at 77 W or it will go on to 61.5 W. Dish may lose the 3 transponder licenses at 157 W that Echostar-4 was keeping warm although I believe they have another application with the FCC related to these 157 W transponders. Here is the link:

    http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=437795
     
  2. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The authorization makes specific reference to the following portion of the FCC rules. The reference is: Further, grant of this application does not constitute an authorization pursuant to Section 25.161(c) of the Commission's Rules concerning automatic termination of license,
    Sec. 25.161 Automatic termination of station authorization.

    A station authorization shall be automatically terminated in whole or in part without further notice to the licensee upon:
    . . .​
    (c) The removal or modification of the facilities which renders the station not operational for more than 90 days, unless specific authority is requested.​
    It looks like E* has 90 days to get something else in place (either authority or a satellite) at 157 or lose the three transponders.

    JL
     
  3. rocatman

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  4. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I do note an error in their application to move E4 to 61.5 ...
    E* claims that the service provided from 157 is totally duplicating service from 148.
    It is not. E4 is currently mirroring transponders from 119 and 110 ...

    Removing E4 from 157 still does not reduce service to customers. But it is an error to say that the services at 157 are duplicated at 148.

    JL
     
  5. Cyclone

    Cyclone Hall Of Fame/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    If they move E4 to 61.5, does that free up Rainbow-1 to be moved to somewhere more useful for E*?
     
  6. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    That is a matter of opinion.

    First note that 61.5 is not the desired destination of E4. The Mexican 77 slot is where E* truly wants to park that satellite. Any use at 61.5 would be a fallback.

    E3 at 61.5 is having its own problems. There are already two 'even' licensed transponders that are empty because E3 cannot carry the load. It has not been disclosed how many 'odd' transponders E3 could cover on its own. R1 cannot cover any of the currently dead E3 transponders. E3 and E4 as a combination MIGHT be able to cover all 32 transponders at 61.5 (this is assuming that E4 gets there at all).

    R1 elsewhere? R1 was specifically designed for the 61.5 slot. According to the ITU filings the spotbeams (22 beams and 130 spot transponders) are not steerable. Moving the satellite to 110 (48.5º) or 119 (57.5º) would place those spotbeams at odd places in the US. R1 elsewhere is basically a CONUS only satellite that is limited to 13 transponders (1-23 odd and 24). E* has plenty of satellites that can do 13 CONUS. And R1 may have the same CONUS footprint problem as AMC-2 had when moving it so far away from it's designed home. R1's best location is where it was designed to serve: 61.5 .

    JL
     
  7. JohnH

    JohnH Hall Of Fame

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    EchoStar 3 can power 21 Transponders at most, due to power supply over heating problems.

    Rainbow 1 will likely not go anywhere.

    EchoStar 4 was not able to do Transponders 3 and 5 at 157. Perhaps Transponder 9 as well.
     
  8. rocatman

    rocatman Icon

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    I would be very surprised if Dish gets approval to use E-4 at 77 W. The FCC has already denied it once and there is the possible interference problem with the DirecTV-5 satellite at 72.5 W. E-4 is suppose to have only 6 useable TPs, three of which are TPs 1, 7 and 11. The two TPs that Dish has use of at 61.5 W that E-3 is not capable of providing are TPs 4 and 28. Now the report of only 6 useable TPs was before the stuck solar array deployed last September so E-4 could have more capability than just 6 TPs.
     
  9. JohnH

    JohnH Hall Of Fame

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    Wasn't the FCC denial on procedural issues rather than the specifics of service at 77w?
     
  10. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Here is the story from the June dismissal:
    FCC Again Dismisses DISH's Mexican DBS Move
    The FCC bureau said it denied EchoStar's request since there's no concrete basis presented in the record for making a favorable public interest determination on the move.​
    They have until July 10th to get a satellite to that position or lose Mexican permission to use the slot.

    The actual FCC denial is in a thread started by JohnH EchoStar 4 STA for 77 west denied
    Consistent with precedent, we conclude that the bringing into use of an ITU filing, by itself, does not constitute a public interest reason sufficient to justify grant of an authorization. Accordingly we deny EchoStar’s request, and dismiss a related request by EchoStar which seeks to modify its authorization for three channels at the 157º W.L. orbital location in order to permit long-term cessation of operations at that location. We also dismiss a request to modify an earth station authorization to add Echostar 4 at 77º W.L. as a point of communication.

    E*'s latest filings seem to suggest that E4 be used to serve Southern states and Mexico. The FCC has approved D*'s use of 72.5 but should do nothing to protect that use within the US. It is a Canadian slot.

    The spacing was set up in a way that 72.5 could cover to the NORTH of the US, with some overlap into CONUS but no interference to 61.5 and other US slots. 77 is set to cover SOUTH of the US, with some overlap into CONUS but again no interference to US slots. The thought that the FCC would have to arbitrate interference issues between a Canadian slot and a Mexican slot is absurd. As long as the foreign satellite usage does not affect US satellite slots they should step away with their only decision being ALLOWING US BSS dishes to receive content from foreign slots and, if no harm is done to US services, ALLOWING the removal of satellites from US control into the control of Canadian and Mexican authorities.

    JL
     
  11. rocatman

    rocatman Icon

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    This sounds good in theory but the FCC having approved the 72.5 W Canadian slot for use in the U.S. is probably not going to approve something that could cause interference to U.S. customers especially Rupert's DirecTV customers considering Rupert's standing with the current U.S. administration. I do not want this to become a political discussion but the fact remains that Rupert is a strong supporter of the current administration and that can influence decisions such as this. DirecTV has already submitted a briefing to the FCC stating their concern about interference to their 72.5 W customers. In addition, I don't think Dish can get E-4 to 77 W by the July 10th deadline.

    In regards to moving R-1, I have always had doubts about moving it to 110 W and still be able to effectively use its spotbeams but consider the move of E-4 to 77 W. E-4 was initial designed for use at 119 W for CONUS and will be moved 42 degrees east and have its downlink beam shifted 10 - 15 degrees to the south. As a point of reference, Seattle is about 119 W and Washington, D.C. is about 77 W longitude respectively. At 119 W, E-4 would have been designed to have its downlink beam pointed generally to the east and of course north from the equator. At 77 W, E-4 will have to be pointed generally to the west towards Mexico and not as far to the north. This is obviously possible but the attitude of E-4 will need to be modified significantly. Certainly spotbeams are much more sensitive than CONUS beams to a satellite longitude shift but it still maybe possible for most of the R-1 spotbeams to be used from 110 W. The R-1 spotbeams would probably become more elliptical and larger which would result in lower signal strength. They also would possibly overlap more creating TP conflicts.
     
  12. rocatman

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    A quick follow-up on conflicts between DirecTV's offerings from 72.5 W related to interference from 77 W. DirecTV offers locals in Texas, Arkansas, Missouri and Georgia where there possibly could be conflicts with 77 W although one would have to look at the specific TPs used and the ones E-4 is capable of providing. Perhaps the FCC would negotiate TP usage to avoid conflicts if they were to approve Dish moving E-4 to 77 W.
     
  13. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    E1 through E6 seem to work anywhere ... within their capabilities. CONUS is a little more easier than trying to make spotbeams work from an odd position. AMC-2 is a worst case scenario for putting a bird at a different orbit. But it turned out E* still had enough of a pattern to get value out of the bird - that is what will happen if E4 gets to 77.

    I've drawn a basic CONUS outline of the US as viewed from 110 or 119 and overlaid it on an "as viewed from 77" satellite view. The CONUS outline is shifted down to cover Mexico. The picture is attached.

    One really has to be generous with the outlines to make a satellite work at any slot 148 to 61.5 . The tight overlay used here would miss either Texas and New Mexico *or* Maine and Florida if used at 61.5 - it would miss Florida if used from 148. Perhaps because this is E4 it will have a more generous footprint than newer satellites that were designed for one or two slots.

    JL
     

    Attached Files:

  14. JohnH

    JohnH Hall Of Fame

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    DirecTV is using Tps 1-16 at 72.5w.

    It would seem that DirecTV would have to be using an extremely sloppy dish for 72.5 in order for an interference problem to exist. After all it is a single slot dish, not a multislot dish.
     
  15. rocatman

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    One thing is for sure, Dish will have E-4 speeding to the east if they want to make that July 10th deadline.
     
  16. JohnH

    JohnH Hall Of Fame

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    Looks like about 4 degrees per day. :D

    2005 Jun 21 12:11:49 0.6896 S 146.3829 W 35448.969
    2005 Jun 22 12:11:49 0.6525 S 142.2101 W 35449.221
    2005 Jun 23 12:11:49 0.6100 S 138.0359 W 35449.606
    2005 Jun 24 12:11:49 0.5622 S 133.8610 W 35450.119
    2005 Jun 25 12:11:49 0.5091 S 129.6862 W 35450.759
    2005 Jun 26 12:11:49 0.4509 S 125.5116 W 35451.522
    2005 Jun 27 12:11:49 0.3879 S 121.3375 W 35452.401
    2005 Jun 28 12:11:49 0.3207 S 117.1637 W 35453.392
    2005 Jun 29 12:11:49 0.2498 S 112.9899 W 35454.487
    2005 Jun 30 12:11:49 0.1761 S 108.8161 W 35455.678
    2005 Jul 01 12:11:49 0.1004 S 104.6420 W 35456.956
    2005 Jul 02 12:11:49 0.0235 S 100.4679 W 35458.310
    2005 Jul 03 12:11:49 0.0538 N 96.2940 W 35459.728
    2005 Jul 04 12:11:49 0.1307 N 92.1206 W 35461.199
    2005 Jul 05 12:11:49 0.2067 N 87.9482 W 35462.709
    2005 Jul 06 12:11:49 0.2810 N 83.7770 W 35464.245
    2005 Jul 07 12:11:49 0.3531 N 79.6076 W 35465.794
    2005 Jul 08 12:11:49 0.4225 N 75.4400 W 35467.341
    2005 Jul 09 12:11:49 0.4888 N 71.2745 W 35468.875
    2005 Jul 10 12:11:49 0.5514 N 67.1112 W 35470.380
     
  17. derwin0

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  18. Mike D-CO5

    Mike D-CO5 Hall Of Fame

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    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Priceless!!!!!
     
  19. BlackHitachi

    BlackHitachi Godfather

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    Oh my gosh!!! I LOL SO MUCH!!
     
  20. bcope9

    bcope9 Mentor

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    lyngsat is showing it moving 4.2 degrees per day, that is moving for a sat.
     
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