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Environment? We don't need no stinkin...

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Strong, Oct 22, 2004.

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  1. Strong

    Strong Icon/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    What does it mean that the US and Australia were the only major countries to not sign the Kyoto agreement. Is it our birthright as Americans to use way more than our share of the earths resources? Is that the Christian, freedom loving thing we share with our fellow citizens of the earth?

    Or is it is it the golden rule...he who has the gold rules and might makes right?

    Or should we even discuss this stuff when we have things like what Kerry's wife says to mull over?

    :confused:
     
  2. Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    The...
    Yes, you are confused and you have mixed your metaphors. I believe the expression is "He who has the gold makes the rules."
     
  3. Strong

    Strong Icon/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Nope, not confused. I like to mix my metaphors. You on the other hand have mixed your metaphors with your aphorisms. :coffee
     
  4. RichW

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    I like my metaphors stirred, not shaken!
     
  5. pjmrt

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    and I like my shaken, not stirred... :D
     
  6. pjmrt

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    First, as discussed in other threads, the case for global warming is not conclusive and the US is moving toward lower emissions. Kneejerk reactions to maybe problems is dangerous and can cause more problems than it might cure.
    Second, I do not believe the US stands alone on this issue. Australia I think agrees, as do Russia I think, ... and probably others we don't know about. Congress could not be convinced to vote for the accord, not even close.

    The accord defers appears to be a bit of a blank check for competitors to the US in trade (i.e. France & Germany cannot come up to our level, so these accords are a great way to knock us down to theirs when it comes to trade). Why should we care about that? - Jobs. Are you willing to give up YOUR job to satisfy someone's OPINION that there is a problem? (and please personalize it - its very easy to philosophize away other people's jobs "for the greater good", would you hit the unemployment line?)

    I see no reason to hurt people today in order try to solve a problem which may or may not really exist. There isn't enough data and experts in the field are not in agreement. Some of the leading skeptics are the leading scientists in the climatelogy field.
    http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~alswingen/against.html
     
  7. garypen

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    I thought metaphors was what those flags are called that are used to communicate between ships. Or, is that petit fours?
     
  8. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Banned User

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    The only people who claim there is no such thing as "global warming" are idiots (strong word, yes, but accurate) and those with a financial bias against doing anything about it. The facts are in: global warming is real and is actually speeding up. What is still unknown is the extent of human influence on the process. To say that humans have no influence is an exercise in the avoidance of reality. Is it a major influence? Minor? Fixable? Those are the questions that need to be asked and studied instead of ideologues wasting time debating something that is already proven.

    BTW, the Russian Duma has ratified the Kyoto Protocol.

    Is the Kyoto Protocol the answer to the problem? Not really. It is a very flawed response using politics instead of science to combat a problem, so it is designed to fail.

    What is needed is for greedy *******s to get out of the way of progress and a move to end dependance on fossil fuels.
     
  9. pjmrt

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    So, just for the record, people like Dr William Gray (one of the leading experts in hurricane forecasting and knows a thing or two about climate physics), and Dr. Richard Lindzen Sloan Professor of Meteorology at MIT and probably the leading expert on climate -- these gentlemen are idiots? Somehow, I don't think so...

    The folks who believe in global warming, and more to the point the assertian that its the fault of industrialized nations, turn their back on a lot of climate data, over simplify their explanation of a minor effect, pre-judge the effect (if real) to be dangerous, violate the basic tennant of science which is to debate the results and require solid evidence, and redicule those who dare disagree with them.

    Honest, people (including experts) disagree with the Kyoto accord. As per your remark about Russia - so far as I can find out they have not ratified the accord and may in fact not do so. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3256604.stm
     
  10. olgeezer

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    The MPH vehicle guidline created during Nixon's administration and Implimented during Carter's was an easily achievable goal. If that goal would have been met, "He who has the gold makes the rules" would not have been Ahab the Arab. There would have been no energy dependence ( of course the Hummer may have been a military only vehicle). Somewhere along the road congress and subsiquent presidents avoided and stonewalled the program
     
  11. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Banned User

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    Global warming is a fact. Whether and how much human intervention has exacerbated the effect is debated. Only those with a financial bias assert that humans have had no effect.

    You're also wrong about the Russian Duma. They ratified Kyoto on Friday.
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...nm/20041022/sc_nm/environment_russia_kyoto_dc

    "Russia's Duma passed the Kyoto bill by 334 votes in favor, with 73 against and two abstentions."
     
  12. pjmrt

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    Not necessarily on a long term scale, and even if it is, there is little evidence to support that it is man-caused, that the Kyoto accord is at all relevant, or that it is a bad thing if it is real. But the supporters of the Kyoto accord would like us to hurt ourselves in order be PC. The administration AND congress (with democrat and republican support) have done the smart thing and NOT approved the Kyoto accord.
     
  13. cdru

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    It's also worth pointing out that Russia basically signed it so that they can get the EU's approval for joining the WTO. I read a decent article on it earlier this week but can't seem to find it right off hand. Here is a article that briefly mentions it.
     
  14. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Banned User

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    If you will note in my original post on this thread, I stated that I had doubts about the Kyoto accords, also.

    And there is significant evidence that man is at least partly responsible for the global warming effects. That we are in a process of global warming is a given, only luddites and, again, those with a financial bias, even try to deny it anymore, the effects are becoming more and more prevalent. What is still debated is how much man has exacerbated the effects and whether there is really anything we can do to slow the process, or even if we should try. It is pretty arrogant to consider that all the pollutants we have pumped into the environment over the past 150 years hasn't had any negative effects at all. No credible scientist would even try to say that there have been no effects.

    While Kyoto may be an erroneous attempt to fix the problem, at least it is an attempt. Burying our heads in the sand and saying there isn't a problem is not a viable solution, either. Saying "the jury is still out" is nothing but an empty and false dodge of the issue, frequently stated by those who really have no clue.
     
  15. DonLandis

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    HGL--
    "What is still unknown is the extent of human influence on the process. "

    Every once in awhile you say something that makes good scientific sense. The key word in the above is "extent" All the science experts understand that the mean temperature of the Earth is cyclical. What is debated is the timing of the cycles and the effect that our man made polutants have vs. the natural influences such as sun spot cycles on the thickness of the ozone layer and atmospheric polution of volcano eruptions and forest fires vs. auto exhaust emmissions. It is these debates that are heavily influenced by politics and business agenda that make factual science obscure and distorted in the press.
     
  16. djlong

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    Kyoto would be taken more seriously by more people if countries like Indian and China were subject to it.
     
  17. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Banned User

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    Exactly. Politics pollutes true science.
     
  18. pjmrt

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    On that we can agree. However, there is a very rational and time-proven philosophy... "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". We disagree on your quote therefore:
    I would put to you that some of the noteable experts who oppose Kyoto are neither clueless or are dodging the issue. If mankind has shown anything, he has shown that attempting to fix problems not fully understood, which may in fact not be problems and are well over his head (and I would put long-term climatology in that category) usually create more problems than it cures, if it in fact cures anything. I agree that we should be good stewards of the earth, and continue to drive down harmful emissions. I would assert that this is ongoing. But Kyoto is severely flawed and is not worthy of the US to sign to. I see no practical benefit to america and the impact on our economy is harmful. The liberals are crying over this because they are piping their song and we won't play. I see no reason to shoot myself in the foot just so I can look like the rest of the world.
     
  19. Bogy

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    Kyoto would be great for our economy. The worst thing we can do is sit back and let the rest of the world develop cleaner, more efficient energy and equipment, while we insist on using 1900's technology. We did this before in the 70's and still haven't caught up. We are slow learners. :(
     
  20. pjmrt

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    I will agree that we need to develop cleaner, more efficient energy/equipment. I think we are doing that - just not as quickly as the zealots would like. Kyoto would cost the US over $60Billion the first year, and more. Russia only agreed to the accord in return for bartering for EU entry. The senate voted 95 - 0 on the accord. IF a fair and equitable accord could be made, I'm sure the US would approve it. But its nonsence to hurt americans (working class jobs) to attack a problem which may not actually be a problem and definely is not an urgent problem. No need to stampeed on this issue. The US is taking the responsible approach.
     
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