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Evolution - Theroies and facts

Discussion in 'The OT' started by RichW, Jun 5, 2002.

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  1. Jun 13, 2002 #61 of 103
    Chris Freeland

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    Most of those 2000 differences is just the more modern use of the English language, feel free to read the same texts in the KJV. I also have the KJV, NIV, a parallel Bible with 4 different English translations (KJV,NKJV, NIV, NAS) and The Clear Word which is a paraphrase. All of these English translations have good and bad points, it is just a matter of personal preference. You can discover Gods truth in all of these Bible translations. ;)
     
  2. Jun 13, 2002 #62 of 103
    Rage

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    OK. But you never proved that there isn't eternal torment and that there is death instead by the verses you mentioned.
     
  3. Jun 15, 2002 #63 of 103
    Chris Freeland

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    Ok Rage, here are some more text, seams pretty clear to me.

    Romans 6:23, NIV. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    Psalm 37:20, NIV. "But the wicked will perish: The Lord’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish-- vanish like smoke."
    Malachi 4:1, NIV. "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire, says the Lord Almighty. Not a root or a branch will be left to them."
    Matthew 25:46, NIV. "Then they will go away to everlasting punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
    Jude 7, NIV. "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
    Matthew 3:12, NIV. "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will clear His threshing floor, gathering the wheat into His barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
    Jeremiah 17:27, NIV says, "But if you do not obey Me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses."
    II Peter 3:10, RSV. "And then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up."
    Revelation 20:15, NIV. "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
    Revelation 20:9, NIV. "But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."
     
  4. Jun 15, 2002 #64 of 103
    Chris Freeland

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    Now to get back on topic, I want to apologies to RichW for contributing in getting this thread so far off topic. Here is a link in another forum with an interesting discussion between creationist, weather the whole Universe was created in 6 days or weather it was just the habitat of the earth that was created in just 6-days? I personaly believe it was just the habitat that we live in that was created in 6-days.http://www.online-adventist.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001963.html
     
  5. Jun 15, 2002 #65 of 103
    Rage

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    Chris:

    The NIV is not God's word. It's a new age pagan Bible. They even have NIV (Never Inspired Version aka Richard Nixon Version aka New World Order version) in abortion clinic waiting rooms from what I hear.



    Psalm 37:20, NIV. "But the wicked will perish: The Lord’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish-- vanish like smoke."

    Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    Matthew 25:46, NIV. "Then they will go away to everlasting punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

    Well this verse goes against your point of view. What does everlasting mean?

    Jude 7, NIV. "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."

    Again, this goes against your believe. The key word being eternal.

    I read the rest of what you wrote but what are you trying to prove? Your work helped me not you. Get out of that church and get reading the KJV. I feel you're not too far off.
     
  6. Jun 15, 2002 #66 of 103
    Bogy

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    Rage, you and your rant on the KJV is some of the funniest stuff you write. :D You are SO brainwashed.
     
  7. Jun 16, 2002 #67 of 103
    Rage

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    First off... you're an apostate. You are the one that has been brainwashed in seminary. I'm like the first century Christian (in theology not actions:D) You're a dope and that's putting it nicely. Secondly, since the King James Version was called the King James Version because he was in power at the time it's only fair to call the NIV the Richard Nixon Version since he was in power when that came out.
     
  8. Jun 16, 2002 #68 of 103
    Bogy

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    Rage, King James is the one who authorized that version. He paid for the translation to be done. He was not just "the one who was in power at that time," he paid for it so he got to have his name on it.
    Richard Nixon did not authorize any translation to be done, he did not pay for any translation to be done, and therefore his name is not it.
    This once again demonstrates the truth of the statement, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." You have a little knowledge and think you know everything. I don't want to offend any of the 18 year olds on this forum, but generally this attitude is one demonstrated by this in this age category. Most people, as they grow older and mature realize that there is much which they do not know. Somehow I thought you were older than 18 Rage.
     
  9. Jun 17, 2002 #69 of 103
    Rage

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    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Jun 17, 2002 #70 of 103
    Chris Freeland

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    I wish I had a body of an 18 year old combined with the knowledge that I have gained over the years.:D
     
  11. Jun 17, 2002 #71 of 103
    Rage

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    Really.
     
  12. Jun 22, 2002 #72 of 103
    Chris Freeland

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    Here is an interesting article that I found in my church denominations news magazine called The Evolution Bandwagon.

    http://www.adventistreview.org/2002-1526/story2.html
    THE PROFESSOR OF EVOLUTION CALLED me into his office, and I was apprehensive. He informed me that the faculty of zoology had been discussing my case, and that while they realized that it was my own business what I believed, it was their duty to see that they did not grant a Ph.D. to someone who was not a scientist. So he wanted to know about my belief in creation.

    I told him that while I could see how one might follow an evolutionary pattern of thought, I had certain problems when I went down that pathway. He was interested. I listed to him a number of scientific problems with evolution, including the fact that when one goes down into the rocks to find the fossil evolutionary ancestors of the turtle, none are found. The turtle is a unique organism that would be expected to leave many intermediates as its systems gradually changed from an assumed lizard type of ancestor to a fully evolved turtle. Many thousands of fossil turtles have been found, one more than 10 feet long, but the many evolutionary intermediates expected are notoriously absent. Did the turtle evolve, or was it created?

    The professor admitted to me that there were some problems with evolution and seemed satisfied with my scientific approach. This incident well illustrates the ongoing battle being waged between science and the Bible.

    The Warfare
    The controversy between the Bible and science is one of the fiercest intellectual battles of all time. It has been especially intense during the past two centuries. The powerful scientific community strongly supports the concept that life gradually evolved by itself over billions of years. This stands in stark contrast to the biblical model of a recent creation of life on earth by God a few thousand years ago, in only six days.


    Related Links


    Gallup Poll About

    Human Origins

    Scientists Still
    Believe in God



    While science is highly respected, the general
    public in the United States has not been that supportive of the evolutionary model. Six Gallup polls over the past two decades (sidebar) indicate that only 9-12 percent of Americans believe science's naturalistic evolutionary model, while 44-47 percent believe God created humans within the past 10,000 years. Some 35-40 percent believe, however, that God guided in the development of life over millions of years.

    It is hard for most people to believe that all the amenities of the universe that provide for life on earth, and the incredible complexities we have found in that life itself, just happened by themselves as science postulates. Even many scientists believe in God. Surveys (sidebar) indicate that about 40 percent believe in a personal God who answers their prayers, 45 percent do not, and 15 percent do not know. The incongruity between the personal belief in God of many scientists and the general absence of God as an explanatory factor in scientific interpretations can probably best be explained on sociological grounds.

    Adventism and Creation
    The Adventist Church has had more than a passing interest in this discussion. We believe that the Bible is the word of God and that God is the creator. One of our most distinctive doctrines, the seventh-day Sabbath, rests largely on the fact that God created in six days and rested on the seventh, as recorded in Genesis and especially as declared by God Himself during the dramatic events around Mount Sinai. There He spoke and with His own finger wrote the Ten Commandments.1 These are likely the most authoritative words from God that we have.

    In the fourth commandment God explains that He created the earth in six days and rested on the seventh day. It is not easy to dismiss God's plain statement in Exodus 20 that "in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day." This does not at all sound like the development of life over millions of years, as proposed by science. Furthermore, it is not easy to read millions of years into the Genesis creation account, as some do, when each of the six days of that account is described with its own "evening" and "morning."2

    The three angels' messages of Revelation 14, given as a warning for the last days of earth, provide further reason for Adventism's interest in creation. Part of the first angel's message is an admonition to "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."3

    The message that God is creator would seem to be particularly timely for the Adventist church, since Adventism developed just as evolution became generally accepted by the intellectual community of the western world. Probably no other idea has had such a pervasive and secular influence on humanity's thinking as evolution has. The date of 1844 is particularly meaningful to us, since this is the time of the Great Disappointment that brought forth Adventism. But 1844 is also an important date in the history of evolution. That year there appeared in England a book entitled Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation, a title that belies the book's heretical contents.

    The book caused a minor explosion in placid Victorian England.4 The author, after analyzing fossil patterns, proposed a then- shocking principle of progressive development for life on earth, i.e., evolution. For that time, the sale of the book was phenomenal. During its first 10 years 24,000 copies were sold, which is more than twice as many as for Darwin's famous On the Origin of Species (also published in England) 15 years later. Sales of Vestiges were enhanced by violent objections from leading thought leaders. Adam Sedgwick, the president of the Geological Society, wrote a 400-page critique of this "false philosophy."5 Adding to the intrigue was the fact that the name of the author was kept secret because he did not dare to identify himself. Only after his death in 1871 was his name revealed. And it turned out to be the well-known Robert Chambers, editor of Chambers' Encyclopedia.

    Darwin's Origin of Species had more influence in the long run, however; and by the end of the century there was general acceptance of some form of evolution by most scientists and many theologians. It has sometimes been proposed that it was no happenstance that the Seventh-day Adventist Church, with its special Sabbath based on creation, came into existence at the same time as evolution. Could it be that one of the special purposes of Adventism is to counter the secularism brought on by the acceptance of evolution?

    Adventism with its seventh-day Sabbath that honors God's six-day creation week is a special answer to ideas of millions of years of gradual evolution where it is postulated that there is no need of a God. It is hard to separate Adventism from creation. Even the first part of our name, "Seventh-day," refers to a memorial of the six-day creation week.

    Speculative Models
    When Charles Darwin published his Origin of Species, it was greeted with a strong but mixed reaction. Some prominent biologists especially objected to his views. However, within a few decades evolution was generally accepted, especially among scientists, and eventually by many theologians.

    Of special interest was a noted group at Princeton University who opposed Darwin but adopted views that incorporated ideas of both creation and evolution. Such intermediate views, of which there are many now,6 have played a prominent role in the debate. None of them agree with the biblical model of a recent creation by God in six days. These models are notably speculative, lacking any direct authentication either from the data of nature or from the Bible. Almost all advocate that life developed over long geological ages, but that in various ways God was somewhat involved.

    Crucial to the debate is the origin of the fossil-bearing layers of the crust of our earth. Did they form gradually over eons, or were they the result of the horrendous worldwide deluge brought on as a result of human wickedness as described in Genesis.7 The Genesis flood is the crucial event that can reconcile the six-day creation account to the fossil record of the earth.8

    Progressive Creation is one of the intermediate views closer to the biblical creation account. It proposes that life developed over millions of years, as God from time to time created more and more advanced forms of life, eventually creating humans. Some advocates of this view propose that each day of creation week described in Genesis represents a very long period of time. However, the sequence of events in Genesis, where plants are created on the third day, before animals on the fifth and sixth days, does not fit the order in the geologic layers, where the major groups of animals appear before almost all the major groups of plants.

    Probably the most serious inconsistency this model faces is that we see the effects of sin in the fossil record at a time that this model assumes to be long before the creation of humans, their fall, and the consequences of that fall on nature.9 The Bible tells us that what God creates is "very good."10 How could that very good creation explain dinosaurs chewing each other up over millions of years before the arrival of sin and its aftermath?

    Furthermore, many thousands of important groups of fossil plants and animals are not now living on earth. Why would a kind and omniscient God create so many species over millions of years, only to have them die out? The biblical model of a recent creation, the fall of humankind, the consequences of sin on nature, and the subsequent destruction by the Genesis flood, resolves these inconsistencies.

    Theistic Evolution is another popular intermediate view between creation and evolution. Here God is closely associated with a continuous evolutionary process over millions of years. He uses evolution, and He is there to help when evolution is inadequate. The model faces the same problems mentioned for progressive creation. Also the many thousands of missing fossil intermediates between major groups of organisms strongly suggest that evolution never occurred.

    Furthermore, it would seem strange that a loving and omniscient God would use the crutch of evolution, in which only the fittest survive. The concern God has for his erring and wayward children does not fit at all with the harsh competition and survival of only the fittest, as proposed for the evolutionary process.

    The recent Intelligent Design movement is a new kind of approach that aims to point to the scientific evidence for some kind of designer. It studiously avoids any reference to the Bible and religion. While its contribution to the origins debate is significant, Adventism, which upholds the Bible as the word of God, adds a much richer input to the discussion.

    Lessons From the Past
    Intermediate views such as theistic evolution and progressive creation have had a significant influence on religious beliefs. The mainline Christian churches have generally accepted such concepts. Evangelical churches, which favor a more direct interpretation of Scripture, tend to have reservations about such views in various ways. It does not appear that trends toward evolutionary concepts have been especially beneficial to mainline churches. In the United States, in the past century, mainline churches have been losing members by the millions, while evangelical types of church organizations have been growing, some quite rapidly.11

    Church growth is a complicated thing, and this data does not warrant the firm conclusion that the trend toward evolution is necessarily the cause of loss in membership. But the trend is away from the Bible, and does not appear to have been helpful for either growth or the spread of the gospel of salvation.

    In order to accommodate the Bible to a variety of other ideas about our origins, it is often suggested that the first 11 chapters of Genesis, which includes the accounts of creation and Noah's flood, are allegorical and not factual history. The problem with that interpretation is that the leading biblical personalities do not treat the creation and flood accounts as allegorical. Many, including Peter, Paul, Christ, and even God,12 authenticate the factuality of creation and the flood. It would be a strange kind of God who would create over millions of years, and then ask us to keep the seventh-day Sabbath holy because he created all in six days! When the Creator of the universe makes a plain statement of fact, who are we to put a question mark after it?

    Drifting away from God's words is a pattern that occurred frequently in Old Testament times. More recently, mainline churches have drifted away from their original beliefs in the Bible. In the past two centuries, many of the leading United States educational institutions that began as church-related institutions (such as Auburn University, Boston University, Brown, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, Rutgers, Tufts, the University of Southern California, Wesleyan University, Wichita State University, and Yale) have abandoned their religious foundations and become independent, secular institutions. In some of these institutions we now find the leading evolutionary authorities of the world. Adventists need to be especially careful that the pressures that have caused other churches and institutions to drift away from the Bible and God do not affect us.

    The Opportunities
    It could be argued that the trend toward evolution and secularization is a trend toward truth. Science has proved its value, and we might as well follow it. However, this argument cannot be easily sustained. While some scientific interpretations challenge the Bible, the past two decades of scientific investigation have not been kind to evolution. Discoveries in three major areas challenge traditional scientific evolutionary interpretations:

    1. The recent discoveries in molecular biology present complexities of integrated and feedback mechanisms that thwart any idea that these could have just happened by chance.13 Thus far, evolutionists have not been able to produce a workable model for the development of complexity. It appears that there has to be an intelligent mind behind all this.

    2. A number of physical constants related to matter and the universe are exactly what they should be to make the universe habitable for life. Even very slight deviations could spell cosmic annihilation.14 This is very precise design.

    3. The new trend in geology toward rapid catastrophic interpretations, which has been labeled as "a great philosophical breakthrough,"15 fits in well with what would be expected from the Genesis flood of the Bible.16

    Adventism has a special opportunity here. We believe that the Bible is the word of God. We believe that God is our creator and that He has the ability to re-create us at the resurrection. We have a seventh-day Sabbath that witnesses to our belief in creation. The opportunities before us are unprecedented. The world needs to know that the Bible is the word of God and that God is the creator. Our creation message provides healing for the skepticism, relativism, agnosticism, and nihilism that are so prevalent now.

    Above all, the world needs to know about the faithful and forgiving God of the Bible who is doing everything possible for the salvation of all.

    1 Gen. 1, 2; Ex. 19; 20; 31; 32.
    2 Gen. 1.
    3 Rev. 14:7.
    4 E. Mayr, The Growth of Biological Thought: Diversity, Evolution, and Inheritance (Cambridge, Mass.: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1982), p. 32.
    5 Ibid.
    6 For a review of the main ideas and references, see: A. A. Roth, Origins: Linking Science and Scripture (Hagerstown, Md.: Review and Herald Pub. Assn., 1998), chap. 21.
    7 Gen. 6-8.
    8 Roth, Origins, pp. 204, 205; J. T. Baldwin, "The Geologic Column and Calvary," in J. T. Baldwin, ed., Creation, Catastrophe, and Calvary (Hagerstown, Md.: Review and Herald Pub. Assn., 2000), pp. 108-123.
    9 Gen. 3:14-19; Rom. 5:12-19; 8:20-22.
    10 Gen. 1:31.
    11 D. M. Kelley, Why Conservative Churches Are Growing: A Study in Sociology of Religion, 2nd ed. (San Francisco, New York, and Hagerstown, Md.: Harper and Row, 1972, 1977).
    12 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5; Rom. 5:12-14; 1 Cor. 11:8; 15:22, 45; 1 Tim. 2:13, 14; Heb. 11:4-7; Matt. 19:4-6; 24:37, 38; Mark 10:6; Luke 17:26, 27; Isa. 54:9; Ex. 20:11; 31:17.
    13 L. M. Spetner, Not by Chance (New York: The Judaica Press, Inc., 1996, 1997); M. J. Behe, Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (New York: Touchstone, 1996).
    14 D.L. Overman, A Case Against Accident and Self-Organization (Lanham, Md.: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, Inc., 1997).
    15 E. Kauffman, quoted in R. Lewin, "Extinctions and the History of Life," Science 221 (1983): 935-937.
    16 Roth, Origins, pp. 195-232, 262-274.

    _________________________
    Ariel A. Roth, now retired, was director of the Geoscience Research Institute for 14 years and editor of the journal Origins for 23 years. He has published more than 150 articles in scientific and general journals. His recent book, Origins: Linking Science and Scripture, is being translated into 11 languages.

















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  13. Jun 23, 2002 #73 of 103
    Rage

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    One of our most distinctive doctrines, the seventh-day Sabbath

    What? What's distinctive about it? It's Christianity 101.

    It's a commandment:

    Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    This ranks up there with thou shall not kill.

    And you have all these 501c3 corporations masquerading like they're a church of God or something. The churches and !QUOT!Christians!QUOT! who rest and worship on Sunday are a bunch of apostates. It's clear on what day to rest and yet your whore religion gets that part right and it's considered distinctive. Give me a break!!!

    *ADMIN-- Quote bug still here after spellcheck...see above*

    I wonder how many of you so called "Christians" here think you're pleasing God by resting and worshipping on Sun(god)day?
    You rest and worship the same as the pagans. The pagans rest on the first day of the week. It's not by accident. The whore (the Catholic pagan cult that came out of the pagan Roman Empire) and her daughters (the whore churches that aren't Catholic) rest and worship on Sungodday. Then they go back to work on Moongodday.
     
  14. Jun 24, 2002 #74 of 103
    Bogy

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    Rage, what day do you set aside to worship? Did you offer a dove, lamb, or ox this past Sabbath? If your answer is that you don't have to offer a sacrifice because that was part of the old covenant, my next question for you is how you can pick and choose which parts of the old covenant law you want to serve and which you don't want to recognize? Where did you worship yesterday? Did you worship with other believers? God has commanded corporate worship, so who did you worship with? And are you absolutely sure what day you worshiped on? They calendar has changed many times over the Milena. Are you sure you didn't worship on the fifth day of the week? Did God really command that we worship on the weekly anniversary of the seventh day of the week of creation, or was the command to rest and worship every seventh day? And if worshiping on Sunday is going to get me sent to hell, why did Jesus say that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath?
     
  15. Jun 24, 2002 #75 of 103
    Rage

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    Rage, what day do you set aside to worship?

    None. Sometimes I do many days per week and other times one day a week. No standard on my part.

    Did you offer a dove, lamb, or ox this past Sabbath?

    No. I rested and did no work as commanded.

    If your answer is that you don't have to offer a sacrifice because that was part of the old covenant, my next question for you is how you can pick and choose which parts of the old covenant law you want to serve and which you don't want to recognize?

    I was hoping that you would post something stupid like this you apostate moron.:lol:

    Resting on the Sabbath is a commandment not part of the old covenant. Duh! Did you learn this in seminary? LOL!:lol:
    It's one of 10 commandments and using your logic it would be ok to throw out !QUOT!Thou shall not kill!QUOT! and the others because that was old. :lol: Jesus stopped the sacrifice. He came to fulfill the law not to destroy it.

    FYI: The Ten Commandments are as valid today as they were when God wrote them in stone with his finger.

    Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Where did you worship yesterday? Did you worship with other believers? God has commanded corporate worship, so who did you worship with? And are you absolutely sure what day you worshiped on? They calendar has changed many times over the Milena.

    LOL!!! You're getting ridicules. The calender changes not the days of the week. The Sabbath is the Sabbath whether it's the 20th or 21st. There's still 7 days a week in every calender. You're just trying to excuse your pagan job as CEO of you local non-profit corporation.

    Did God really command that we worship on the weekly anniversary of the seventh day of the week of creation, or was the command to rest and worship every seventh day?

    Rest only. People worked 6 days a week from day to night so many didn't get a chance to worship other than on the Sabbath.
    The Sabbath is a specific day of the week. Read your damn Bible.
    Jesus and his followers were !QUOT!attacked!QUOT! (accused) for healing and plucjing corn and eating it on the Sabbath by the scribes and keepers of the law. If it was only 1 of any 7 days then it wouldn't have been a big deal in the Bible.

    Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
    Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

    Luk 6:9 Then Jesus said to them, I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil, to save life, or to destroy it?

    Mat 12:11 And He said to them, What man among you will be, who will have one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the sabbaths, will he not lay hold on it and lift it out?
    Mat 12:12 How much better is a man then than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

    Are you sure who you're serving, Bogy? Obviously not or you wouldn't have posed the question that you did. You're suppose to be a leader of a flock but you have no idea if the Sabbath is one specific (time) day or any one out of seven. The blind leading the blind.

    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

    2Ti 4:1 Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom,
    2Ti 4:2 preach the Word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.
    2Ti 4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear.

    If it was up to me I'd throw you in jail for a year with only a KJV Bible because that's what you need.


    And if worshiping on Sunday is going to get me sent to hell, why did Jesus say that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath?

    You can worship and have services 7 days a week if you please. Jesus said that because he wanted one day a week for man to rest and worship Him if that would be the only chance to do so during the week. He created man so he knows that man needs a day of rest.
     
  16. Jun 24, 2002 #76 of 103
    Chris Freeland

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    I did not intent for my post to start a Sabbath vs Sunday thread, however I hate to admit this but Rage has given some very good arguments on why we as Christians should keep the seventh day Sabbath. Like Rage has pointed out, just because the calendar has bean changed over the centuries, the days of the week have not. The Jews have bean keeping the seventh day Sabbath for approximately 4000 years or so, during that time there have bean at least 2 calendar changes and yet are Jewish friends still keep the same day. God himself rested on the 7th day Sabbath, so it is not a strictly Jewish day. I keep the 7th-day Sabbath not to get saved but because I am saved, the same reasons I do my best to keep the other 9 commandments. Having said the above I can not judge anyone else’s salvation based on what day they keep or any other outward practice. Only God can judge from the inside, for me it is very clear that Gods word teaches me that I should keep the 7th day Sabbath to the best of my abilities.
     
  17. Jun 24, 2002 #77 of 103
    Bogy

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    And I will keep celebrating the day my Saviour rose from the dead. Following the tradition set by those first disciples of Jesus who gathered on the first day of the week to worship together. Every seven days. Celebrating the new creation.
     
  18. Jun 25, 2002 #78 of 103
    Geronimo

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    The reference to a church as a "whore" is offensive and inappropriate. Ditto calling another poster an "apostate moron".

    I don't think this is what Christainity is about.
     
  19. Jun 25, 2002 #79 of 103
    Ray_Clum

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    Actually, none of us follows the Sabbath...

    The Sabbath is one day of rest every 7 days, but it is also one year of rest every 7 years and after 7 Sabbath years, the Jubilee occurs - a forgiveness of debts, a return of slaves, etc. (read Leviticus Chapters 23 & 25 - 23 addresses the 7 day Sabbath and 25 addresses the 7 year Sabbath)
     
  20. Jun 25, 2002 #80 of 103
    Ray_Clum

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    Rage,

    Neither the NIV or the KJV is the "true" Bible. Any Bible you find in English is a translation. In fact, any Bible you find printed today is a translation from the original because no one (except is certain literary & academic circles) reads the original Greek or Aramiaic (sp?) that the New Testament was written.

    God speaks through His Word to your (mine and everyone else's too) heart, not by printed words but by the effect the Word and the Spirit has on you. It doesn't matter if you read the KJV, the NKJV, NIV, The Message, etc. (I even saw a report 5-10 years ago about an Ebonics Bible). Just read the Word and grow in God's love.
     
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