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Explosion reported near finish of Boston Marathon

Discussion in 'The OT' started by trdrjeff, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It was probably seen to be more of an insult to the remaining bombing victims at that hospital than trying to insult the (alleged) bomber. But there being no "Muslim" hospital available it becomes less of a choice. They took him to the most appropriate place to render care and continue the investigation.


    Perhaps ... But it may be found that he was under heavy pressure from the brother and that he would not have assisted in the bombing had it not been for the imposing influence of an older brother. When all the investigation is done I believe we will find that the older brother was trained and built the bombs and the younger was less involved.

    Not that the younger bears no responsibility ... but will he remain a danger to himself and others without the influence of his brother? My guess is he will get four life sentences and even though the court will not say "without the possibility of parole" for as long as people remember the bombing he will not get parole. Room and board for the rest of his long life.
     
  2. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member

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    Actually, Stewart, the death penalty, IMHO, is nothing BUT punishment, but that's an argument for another time.

    As I stated earlier, I am not opposed to the death penalty per se; I'm not an opponent of capital punishment in general. I've been in favor of it as a matter of the states' rights to have or not have it. However, because so many truly innocent persons were sent to death row in Illinois due to the horrible and rampant corruption in that state's political and judicial system, the cry to abolish it grew so loud that the Democrat-controlled House and Senate did just that, and Governor Quinnocchio (D) signed the bill abolishing it. I supported that decision because in Illinois, the whole system was broken.

    I must admit, though, that I just find it macabre that a people like us, Americans who despise the killing that occurred in the bombings, can become easily vengeful and thirsting for blood by incessant rants of this guy getting the death penalty. I bet I might feel differently if it was MY relative or friend who was killed, but then I would be acting (or reacting) emotionally, wouldn't I?

    If the death penalty is appropriate in this case, let's proceed that way; but let's not do it in a way that makes us look as pro-death as the defendant.
     
  3. spartanstew

    spartanstew Dry as a bone

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    Do you happen to have a link to when sigma stated that he was against waterboarding during Bush's presidency?
     
  4. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member

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    My post was an intentional devil's advocate reply to a liberal, but this is not the place to get any more political than we already have by our death penalty discussion.
     
  5. MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    The Death Penalty (aka Capital Punishment) is a legal process whereby a person is put to death by the state as a "punishment" for a crime.
     
  6. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    One might wonder which is the worst punishment ... six years in prison and a death that could give martyr status (following the Timothy McVeigh timetable) or 60-70 years in prison "considering the rights and wrongs of one's life" (or perhaps developing a cult following) while waiting to die.

    He "only" killed four people (five if you count running over his own brother while escaping Thursday Night / Friday Morning - although that could be considered the attempted murder of two more officers). Perhaps that is not enough to earn the death penalty. The attempt should be enough.
     
  7. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I don't want to make this a religious discussion so please let's not do that... but from my perspective death is pretty final. Either there is no afterlife, so your "punishment" would be over immediately... OR there is an afterlife, and you would be punished accordingly... but that would happen anyway upon your natural death, so the death penalty would again be irrelevant.

    I'm not rah-rah for it, nor am I against it... I understand the need for it, applied sparingly, in some cases. I'm just saying the death penalty really is not a punishment.... it effectively ends your punishment for whatever crime you committed but it does rather permanently take away your ability to further harm living society. So I believe it should be reserved for those individuals where you really can't let them out again.
     
  8. MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    Who's getting religious??? In post #59 you stated "The death penalty is NOT a punishment". What I posted in post #65 is the definition of the Death Penalty which clearly states it is a punishment.
     
  9. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Sorry, but you misread my post. My post was pointing out that I am accounting for both religious and non-religious, but that I was not opening the door to a religious debate. I wasn't saying that you or anyone else was trying.. I was heading off that tangent as I was posting.

    Meanwhile... yes, I know you quoted the definition which of course would say it is a punishment. I'm just saying philosophically that I don't care what the "definition" says... death penalty is the end of punishment for a criminal... it is not a punishment in and of itself. Once you kill someone, you are done punishing them, period.
     
  10. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member

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    So, using your logic, if a criminal is sentenced to say, be whipped once, it isn't punishment, right? After all, he's flogged once and it's done. It's the end. If that's not punishment, I don't know what is.

    I agree with MM. The death penalty is punishment. In fact, it's the ultimate punishment.
     
  11. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I can understand Stewart's point ... but would say it a different way.
    Capital punishment is the end of punishment (regardless of what happens happens after).
    Life imprisonment is the beginning of punishment (although there are some who adjust to prison life).

    A nineteen year old looking forward to 60 or 70 years in prison may wish he were dead. Timothy McVeigh was a few days shy of his 27th birthday when he took the lives of 168 people in Oklahoma City. Two years later he was sentenced to death and six years later he was dead.

    Is he better off dead? Is society better off because McVey is dead? Quite frankly I don't care.

    The nicest thing about a death penalty is that there is no parole. There is no judge years later who rules that all is forgiven and that person can walk the streets again. After execution there is no human who can change a "life without parole" sentence to allow parole and allow someone who inflicted so much pain on society to rejoin it. The worst thing about the death penalty is the same list ... including no forgiveness.

    Less than a week after the bombings it is easy to be so mad about what this 19 year old did that one might want to forget about a trial and kill him in the streets like a rabid animal. There are people quite happy that the 26 year old brother is dead without a trial. These two people certainly didn't give those they killed and maimed at the marathon a fair trial - nor was the MIT police officer given a chance to live. But are we sinking to the level of the criminal by turning to vengeance? I hope our society can be better than the criminals we prosecute.

    The tunnel vision of officers in Boston so intent on arresting the older brother that they ignored the younger almost got them killed and led to the younger brother's temporary escape and the lockdown of the city. They lost situational awareness. Let us not do the same.
     
  12. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Yeah, James got what I was saying.

    Umm, no. If you punish someone without killing them, then they live with what they have done and get the punishment too... if you give the death penalty as the punishment, then they do not live with their crimes and punishment. By virtue of your "punishment" of putting them to death you simultaneously start and end their punishment, and that's that.

    The whole point of punishing anyone for anything is to show them there is cause and effect, and perhaps to make them think twice the next time they think of committing a crime. The final punishment of death allows no such after-thought.

    Would you rather be kidnapped and imprisoned for years or killed? That's the choice from the criminal's perspective... Your less-violent criminal prefers imprisonment... your more violent criminal likely prefers the death penalty to life-long prison where he has to sit and think about things.

    Arguably the life-sentence for many criminals is far more of an individual punishment. In a way, the death penalty sets a person free.

    That's all I was saying.
     
  13. MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    Sugar coat it all you want gentlemen, a death sentence is punishment. When you're convicted of a crime your punishment is incarceration and loss of your freedom. When you're convicted of a capital crime your punishment is loss of your life. As for people being happy with the death of Tamerlan Tsarnaev I find no fault with them. There's nothing wrong with feeling good knowing that SOB will never kill or maim anyone again.
     
  14. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

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    Well, at least with someone like McVeigh, we don't have to pay to house him etc for many years. My main concern with the death penalty is that we need to be absolutely sure the person is guilty. Ron Williamson was 5 days away from execution and had lost several appeals. He was later cleared of wrongdoing by DNA evidence.

    Not saying that they have the wrong person in this case.
     
  15. wilbur_the_goose

    wilbur_the_goose Hall Of Fame

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    I find it interesting that this case got so much coverage when Chicago (for example - you can substitute most big cities here) sees more of its citizens murdered every week than the murder count from the Boston attack.

    Don't people who live in crime ridden areas of our inner cities experience a different form of terrorism in their lives every day? I'll bet that 95%+ of these people are scared to death of what happens in their own neighborhoods every day.

    And, yes, I thought the Boston attacks were definitely terrorism and an attack on us all.
     
  16. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

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    True, though something on this scale does deserve national coverage. A story that did get lost in everything has been the flooding in Illinois.
     
  17. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member

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    Indeed. The suburb from which I just moved last August was on both ABC and NBC's network news last Thursday. They had national correspondents in those waist-length wading boots, and aerial footage showed areas of that suburb unrecognizable because of they were submerged.
     
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Part of what makes an event news is the unexpected. We do not expect two bombs to go off near the finish line of the Boston Marathon. But getting mugged on public transit or being shot for being in the wrong neighborhood in a major city is not a surprise. People outside of the those areas of the city see it as another reason not to go there. People outside the city consider it a local problem ... something routine that needs to be solved locally.

    I'm not sure why terrorism strikes fear into everyone ... but I suspect it is because it is unexpected. For some reason a couple of people setting bombs in Boston makes one look at any unattended bag with more suspicion, even in a small town in rural America. At least until the shock wears off.
     
  19. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It's always a fine line. Giving media the benefit of the doubt for a moment... if they cover the flood in another state, then we would have people asking "what about that terrorist attack in Boston" so sometimes I think they can't win for losing.

    I agree, though, that sometimes one story will get all the press sometimes to the exclusion of other things... like spending all afternoon saying "we have no new updates" and then speculating on random things for hours when they could have been covering other actual news. That's when I get frustrated. I'm fine with them covering one big story all day as long as there is stuff to cover... but when they are just standing around exchanging "I dunno", I too wish they could cover other news.
     
  20. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    They did cover other stuff on Wednesday and early Thursday but Boston pulled itself to the forefront with the release of the suspect photos and videos followed by the evening's killings, ongoing gunfire and whole city lock down.

    It was one of those situations where no one knew when it would end and until the 6pm Friday news conference the end seemed to be 10 minutes away all day. It was as if it were a movie where no one told you if it was a 100 minute film or a 200 minute film ... you could leave the theater to go to the bathroom and buy more popcorn but if you did you might miss the ending. The news channels dare not cut away.
     

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