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FROM MARK: Please Respond - Do you lose any OTA channels when the 921 reboots?

Discussion in 'Other HD Receiver Support Forum (811, 921, 942)' started by Mark Lamutt, Jul 1, 2004.

FROM MARK: Please Respond - Do you lose any OTA channels when the 921 reboots?

  1. [size=2]YES - I have to add back in one or more OTA channels after a reboot[/size]

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. [size=2]NO - all of my channels are still there as normal after a reboot[/size]

    37.7%
  3. [size=2]No OTA channels in my area / I don't use the 921 for OTA channels[/size]

    62.3%
  1. Jul 1, 2004 #1 of 119
    Mark Lamutt

    Mark Lamutt Your Neighborhood Liasion

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    As suggested by kmcnamara and jsanders, I would like to collect data on whether or not you lose any OTA channels when the 921 reboots. That is do you have to add any OTA channels back or rescan OTA channels after your 921 reboots?

    If you answer YES, please provide your location, the station(s) you have to add back, and contact information for the engineering department at the station(s) if you can get it.
     
  2. Jul 1, 2004 #2 of 119
    JM Anthony

    JM Anthony Child of the 60's DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Sorry, fat finger error, my "No OTA channels" should have been "No problems with my OTA channels.
     
  3. Jul 1, 2004 #3 of 119
    rlewis52

    rlewis52 New Member

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    Yes I have to add back all my ota in the Dallas area when the 921 reboots.
    The channels are 4,5,8,11,21,27,33 no other infro. available.
    rlewis
     
  4. Jul 1, 2004 #4 of 119
    Mark Lamutt

    Mark Lamutt Your Neighborhood Liasion

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    C'mon rlewis52 - you have to tell me more than that. The reason for the contact info is so that the Dish engineers here in Denver can contact the stations to find out what they are transmitting that the 921 is not liking. At least give me the call letters of the stations. And the stations have to at least have web sites.
     
  5. Jul 2, 2004 #5 of 119
    kmcnamara

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    I am in the Dallas area and lose the following stations following every reboot:

    KERA (PBS) - ATSC 14 http://www.kera.org/
    KDFW (FOX) - ATSC 35 http://www.kdfw.com/
    WFAA (ABC) - ATSC 9 http://www.kdfw.com/
    KDAF (WB) - ATSC 32 http://wb33.trb.com/
    KTVT (CBS) - ATSC 19 http://www.ktvt.com/
    KTXA (UPN) - ATSC 18 http://www.ktxa.com/

    I DON'T lose the following 2 channels:

    KXAS (NBC) - ATSC 41 http://www.nbc5i.com/index.html
    KPXD (PAX) - ATSC 42 http://www.paxtv.com/stations/contact.cfm?sti_id=18

    Edit: Per Simon's message below, I wanted to add that I had thought about the manual vs. autoscan. For me, it makes no difference. The end result is the same either way.
     
  6. Jul 2, 2004 #6 of 119
    SimpleSimon

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    Maybe an appropriate question is: Do you lose 'auto-scanned' OTA on a reboot? Manually added OTA only? Etc.

    If some people but not others are losing OTA, look for the correlation, and the above seems an obvious place to start.

    The fact that some OTA is lost across a reboot indicates that something is not being saved to non-volatile storage (disk), and is only being kept in RAM. OR, nothing is saved and the box IS auto-scanning on a reboot.

    Having no experience with OTA, I'm speculating here, but it sure seems obvious.

    This business about contacting stations can only go so far - and E* certainly isn't going to get them to change things in any reasonable manner.

    Once a channel has been added (auto or manual) it simply should not disappear due to a reboot - regardless of what the sending station is doing right or wrong.

    So, I'll speculate that nothing is saved and a scan IS occurring on reboot, but who knows?
     
  7. Jul 2, 2004 #7 of 119
    jsanders

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    I don't think I can take credit for that one. I started the thread, however, kmcnamara thought "it would make an interesting poll to ask if people who use the OTA functionality of the 921 have to add back any channels after a reboot".

    Anyway, I obviously have to re-scan my stuff every time the 921 reboots.

    I know for sure that I have to add these stations in the San Francisco Bay Area:

    KPIX, CBS channel 5, digital 29, www.kpix.com (signal strengh 109)
    KGO, ABC channel 7, digital 24, abclocal.go.com/kgo (signal strength 76)
    KBWB WB 20.1 digital 19 www.wb20.com (signal strength 101)

    KBHK, UPN channel 44, digital 45 www.upn44.tv (signal strength 102) does not get lost and these two stations (KBHK and KPIX) are owned by the same company, and the engineering department handles both KPIX and KBHK.

    The following I don't know about the following yet, I will check tomorrow when it reboots (I usually just re-scan rather than re-add so I don't know all of the problem channels):

    KICU-DT 36.1 52 (gone) www.ktvu.com/kicu/index.html
    KSTS-DT 48.1 49 (gone) www.ksts.com/
    KNTV-DT 11.1 12 (gone) www.nbc11.com/index.html
    KDTV-DT 14.1 51 (didn't dissapear)
    KTVU-DT 2.1 56 (gone) www.ktvu.com/index.html
    KCNS-DT 38.1 39 (gone) www.plu.edu/~kcns/index.htm
    KRON-DT 4.1 57 (gone) www.kron.com
    KQED-DT 9.1 30 (gone) www.kqed.org/index.jsp?flash=true
    KTSF-DT 26.1 27 (gone) www.ktsf.com
    KKPX-DT 65.1 41 (gone) www.pax.tv/stations/default.cfm?sti_id=66&siteid=50659
    KFSF-DT 34.1 34 (gone)
    KTNC 42 42 (didn't dissapear)
    KCSM-DT 43.1 43 (didn't dissapear)
    KGO 7.1 24 (gone) http://abclocal.go.com/kgo
    KPIX 5.1 29 (gone) www.kpix.com

    I actually have got more channels than this in my list that don't show up, however, they don't show up on antennaweb.org either, so I don't know what digital channels to manually add to see if I can get them back.

    Edit: Went through my channel list morning of 7/2/04 to list whether the channel was (gone), or (didn't dissapear).
    2nd Edit: Added URLs to second list of stations.
     
  8. Jul 2, 2004 #8 of 119
    jsanders

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    Very good questions database man. I've been trying to piece it together too. It isn't quite that easy though. I do an auto-scan, and I pick up some channels, then I have to manually add KPIX sometimes. The next reboot comes around, and I lost both the auto scanned channels and the manually scanned channels! Go figure!

    When the channels are lost, they still appear in the channel database! It seems that at least some information is written and saved to the channel list.

    It is also interesting to note that some people have noted that some channels get remapped to other channels, Mark did a poll on that one before too. I think they are related. For me, I've seen KPIX map to KBHK or KQED before. Still, KPIX and KBHK both stay in the channel list seen by the user. It seems based on correlating the two experiences, that some sort of frequency information is getting lost. KPIX, channel 5.1 is digital 29, it seems like the digital 29 frequency is getting lost. That would explain the lost channel after the reboot (the frequency info is gone), and it would explain why two channels could get mapped to each other (the KPIX and KBHK frequencies get swapped).

    It seems that they really do need a database expert to look at it! :rolleyes:
     
  9. Jul 2, 2004 #9 of 119
    SimpleSimon

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    I'm available. :D
     
  10. Jul 2, 2004 #10 of 119
    TV Director

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    ...and they're all there, right where I left them.


    -TV Director :listenup:
     
  11. Jul 2, 2004 #11 of 119
    Redster

    Redster Godfather/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Occasionally when I do a reboot, one of my OTA's become unavailable but a quick rescan solves that. I dont think its the same channel every time, so in my case,, it seems to depend on the station signal strength and whether its strong enough when the 921 reboots to pick it up.
     
  12. Jul 2, 2004 #12 of 119
    dishbacker

    dishbacker Godfather

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    I'm having adventures keeping one of my OTA channels in Dallas, WFAA (ABC - NTSC 8, ATSC 9) http://www.wfaa.com, but I don't loose the rest of the channels, so I have a feeling it could be related to some adjustments in my antenna positioning. Haven't tested it enough, but since Monday night (when I got the 921), I've lost it 3 different times.

    What is the best way to re-scan it though? I delete the remaps (8.1 and 8.2) along with 9.1 (which is the only Dallas channel that has problems with not removing the ATSC channel when the remap channels show up), do a save, exit out of the list, and then try to re-add it. It scans... eventually gets up to the 120+ lock strength, but when I try to go to that channel, it waits for 8-10 seconds and then give me the message that it can't find the channel. Do I have to remove the entire list and re-add them all in order to get it to work again?
     
  13. Jul 2, 2004 #13 of 119
    DonLandis

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    dishbacker-
    I believe last winter many were forgetting to put a check in the dot next to the channel before saving it when doing manual scan. This was causing the channel not to complete the process of listing it in the memory. Yes, I agree, this appears to be a redundant step but none the less, it is a requirement to do the channel add correctly.

    Aside from manual vs. auto scan differences, I'll offer that my only channel I lost (months ago) and never bothered to re-add was a deep fringe weak signal channel. Otherwise my strong signal channels never disappear anymore since L149.

    Another station difference is that the HDTV channel (1080i) could be transmitted on digital channel -2 with nothing on channel -1. I got this from out local CE at a CBS affil station. Seems the cheaper encoders from Tanberg offer no channel assignment and have a preset default of all 1080i configured channels are output on the -2 subchannel. Then the receiver will auto map (most receivers) to another mapped channel but on -1 by default. Not all stations use these cheaper (Tanberg) encoders. That's about all I know about this difference except that we have at least 2 stations using them here and I don't have any problem losing them. One is FOX and they don't do 1080i so their output is -1 and 480P /widescreen. The CBS using it is 1080i and it outputs on -2 but remaps to the mapped channel -1. So, I doubt the channel mapping is an issue but thought I'd mention it to keep in the back of your minds.
     
  14. Jul 2, 2004 #14 of 119
    Bogney

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    Interestinging that you should mention this. I used to lose all OTA stations except for WCBS-DT after a reboot. I now do not lose any channels after a reboot.

    One of the channels, WLIW-DT channel 21 (RF 22), was broadcasting on -2 and -3 with nothing on -1. They have recently switched to -1 and -2.

    I did not think the lack of a -1 on one station could cause 7 others to be deleted after a reboot but you never know.

    And for the record, WLIW-DT is no longer recognized by my 921. I get plenty of signal but it is no longer will be added to the list. WLIW is fine on my HIPIX card.

    http://www.wliw.org/
     
  15. Jul 2, 2004 #15 of 119
    RobbinMerritt

    RobbinMerritt AllStar

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    Occasionally I've lost multiple stations after reboot but generally just this one:

    Houston, TX
    Signal strength is 80-100. The level does vary more on this station than the others.

    Station: FOX KRIV-DT

    General Information


    Network Name: FOX
    Local Station: KRIV-DT
    Regular TV Channel: 26
    Broadcast City:
    Local Station Site: http://www.fox26.com/
    Cable Only Channel: No
    Designated Market Area Information
    Phone: (713) 479-2600


    DMA Name: Houston, TX
    DMA Ranking: 11 out of 210

    DTV Information


    Supports DTV: yes
    DTV Channel(s): 27
    DTV Formats Used:
    Tower Information*


    Location:
    Transmission Power: 261 kw DA
    HAAT: 1752
    Mile Coverage:
    Latitude: 29 ° 34 ' 28 "
    Longitude: 95 ° 29 ' 37 "
    * Source: 100000 Watts
     
  16. Jul 2, 2004 #16 of 119
    Mark Lamutt

    Mark Lamutt Your Neighborhood Liasion

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    Simon, you'd be surprised at what a phone call from Dish will do...I know of 7 stations off the top of my head that a phone call did wonders...
     
  17. Jul 2, 2004 #17 of 119
    DonLandis

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    Bogney-

    I have said for quite some time now that these channel mappings, including guide data are voodoo magic, left to the discretion of the station. I would hope that the FCC can step in and dictate a standard for all stations to adhere. Unfortunately, they haven't and what we have and will continue to have is lots of differences and no required standard. Even my VOOM receiver has channel mappings and guide data that is totally inaccurate, out of date, and a result of the station not following what VOOM thinks it should be doing. Basically, the deregulation of the Broadcast standard has left the consumer a real mess, hodge podge and few consumers understand that. The CEA has to try to deal with it and to date, is not doing well.
     
  18. Jul 2, 2004 #18 of 119
    jsanders

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    I don't believe that this has anything to do with the transmissions. If there is something odd about the transmission, then why is it that the channel is lost *only* when the machine is booted? Why aren't there any problems adding the channels back? The transmission doesn't look like the culpret.

    It looks more like there is a linked list that either gets corrupted, or not all of it gets saved to a file. The problem could be as simple as doing a strategically placed fflush(FILE *) and/or an fclose(FILE *). It just looks like the frequency info isn't getting saved. That also explains why some people don't have any problems, and why sometimes channels get remapped to other stations.

    In the case of those that have no problems, they may well be managing to execute a code path that does an fflush() and fclose(). Those that aren't, the frequency element of the channel struct could easily be random data. The result is that sometimes the random data remaps to a different channel that is viewable. Or, in the case that a link was added to the list (assuming they are sorted by the user displayed channels), the frequency element is equal to the frequency element of the last channel that used that space on the disk. In the event of those that loose the data all together, the frequency could be initialized to 0. There is no channel zero, right? It could also be a number bigger than 69. It's convenient to make the channel frequency an unsigned 8-bit number, so there are lots of possibilities to cause this to happen.

    Here is another possibility. When you do a scan-dtv, or add-dtv, you augment your linked list, or array of channels, and you do an fflush() and/or fclose depending on how paranoid you are, is the code solid enough in that it looks at the global "errno" in the event of an fclose to see if there were any error codes? Does it look at ferror(FILE *stream) to see that NULL is returned?

    I don't have the code to look at, and I can only guess, but the observations suggest this isn't a transmission problem.
     
  19. Jul 2, 2004 #19 of 119
    kmcnamara

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    Don, are you sure this is true? I've never put a checkmark next to the channels before saving. My usual process is to scan for local digital OTA, delete the ones I don't care about, and hit Save.

    If you have to mark each channel before saving, I wonder why my NBC and PAX stations are always still available after a reboot? I hope this is the solution I've been looking for!
     
  20. Jul 2, 2004 #20 of 119
    jsanders

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    Oh, that could well be the other code path I was looking for!
     

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