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Gas prices going up like a rocket here

Discussion in 'The OT' started by invaliduser88, Mar 17, 2006.

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  1. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    $2.79 this morning when I filled up. I turned in my Honda Pilot last month and got an accord. Getting AVERAGE of city/highway MPG of 27. Much better than the 19 or 20 I was getting. I loved my Pilot--but I just need to trim expenses somewhere.
     
  2. Jack White

    Jack White Icon

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    Just wait till the US goes to war against Iran.
    The 2nd largest oil exporting country in the world.
    It will probably be about $6 a gallon after Iran stops exporting.
    And if OPEC ever does boycott, it will be at least $20 a gallon.
    I hope you guys have your bicycles handy :)
     
  3. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    We're going to war against Iran? When is that?
     
  4. Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    The...
    We're not, but just the rumor is enough to send oil speculators into a tizzy, and consumers into a panic.

    :rolleyes:
     
  5. missileman

    missileman Legend/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Sam's Club, known for the LOWEST gas prices here, is now the same ($2.65) as Shell, which used to be the HIGHEST!! I'm pissed!!
     
  6. Cholly

    Cholly Old Guys Rule! DBSTalk Club

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    $279 in most of the stations around Charlotte today. Huge increase over the past few weeks. Some of it's due to the futures prices, but there's a good deal of price gouging going on all around the country. Exxon Mobil stockholders must love it!:mad:
     
  7. olgeezer

    olgeezer Guest

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    I don't think the U.S. gets any oil from Iran. It may save our military some oil as Iran is neighbors to the one country we should have finished with 4 years ago and the other one we decided we needed to invade so we could stay forever.
     
  8. AllieVi

    AllieVi Hall Of Fame

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    It really doesn't matter if we do or do not get oil directly from Iran. Worldwide oil production is barely able to meet demand today. Remove Iran's oil, and the world will bid up prices on the remaining available supplies. We'll have to pay those higher prices.
     
  9. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

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    Fortunately, now that we have the Iraqi oil fields producing at maximum capacity they are paying their own way and gas prices have returned to pre-OPEC levels. :lol:
     
  10. Jack White

    Jack White Icon

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    That does NOT matter. As my Macroeconomics teacher would say, we DON'T live in a vaccum. If Iran stops exporting oil, then the supply goes down, the demand is the same, therefore prices go WAY WAY up. Iran's oil customers will go to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Russia, etc and therefore drive up global oil prices.
     
  11. Mark Holtz

    Mark Holtz Day Sleeper DBSTalk Club

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    From MSNBC:

    Soaring gas prices affect job decisions
    FULL ARTICLE HERE

    And, to think, we have what is nicknamed "super commuters". These are folks who drive 2-3 hours from the Sacramento area to the Bay Area each day for their jobs.

    Oh, did I mention 2-3 hours ONE WAY?
     
  12. Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    The...
    This is news?

    For my entire working life, I've chosen to live close to where I work, and work close to where I live, and
    it was more about family and quality of life than (not then) about the price of a 49¢ gallon of gasoline.

    It's the choices we make that determines our quality of life and, ultimately, our happiness.
     
  13. AllieVi

    AllieVi Hall Of Fame

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    Amen!
     
  14. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    Actually, the Iraqi oil fields are producing more than they did when Saddam was in power, and the price of oil has little to do with that, and more to do with China's and India's oil usage going up (and the price of gas has much to do with lack of refinaries here).

    But, by all means, turn this political, as most partisans would.
     
  15. DonLandis

    DonLandis Hall Of Fame

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    Don't need to turn it political, Cap. but you do need to get a reality check on this- It's more about corporate greed than any political conspiracy or the fact that China is learning to drive. You seem to forget one thing- THERE IS NO GAS SHORTAGE! and if you still don't get it- I'll say it in simpler language- NO GAS SHORTAGE

    Now that we understand this, I'm not saying that once every "chinaman" owns 2-3 cars like we do now in America, there won't be a shortage but the fact is that will be in the future, not today. Today, WE HAVE NO GAS SHORTAGE!

    There are no lines due to shortage and traffic is heavier than before. The only lines I have seen this past winter have been where station owners refused to serve people waiting for their new prices to get increased. This way they can make more on the gas in the ground bought at lower prices. These lines often happen early mornings when they are waiting for the coordinator to call and tell them what the new price will be for the day. If price is on the rise, some station owners will close pumps an hour or two before the scheduled phone call causing the lines. This is not a shortage but rather price planning for profit taking at the end of the chain.

    If you really want to see where the price gouging is being done- look at the margins at the top of the chain. Let's start with the fact that crude will have a cost of $10 out of the ground and was making the Arabs rich at 100% markup 10 years ago. Today they are becomming obscenely rich and are able to afford Nukes and finance wars like this country does with their 600% markup. Add to that the current increase in margins by the refineries where then had a 80% markup in the 1990's and are now at 170%. Any of you work in retail electronics- I recall it was about 40% markup. When I was in the matenance chemicals business we worked on 12% markup. In chemical intermediates, such as glycol ethers and acrylates we had a 30% markup but that was back in the 70%. I have no idea what it is today. I just know that some things like gasoline, has been priced out of proportion with the rest of the economy for about 6-8 years now. In other countries, longer! While politics may have a role in this, I believe it is a role of government favoring laws to allow these greedy oil execs to bankrupt the world with their huge profits. But it starts with the greed at the top. The China consumption factor is nothing but scare tactics these greedy bastards want the ignorant fools in this country to believe.
     
  16. DonLandis

    DonLandis Hall Of Fame

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    http://www.ei2025.org/facts_ei2025-pdf.asp

    Some interesting reading with lots of BerkelyU. style charts and impressive data but the bottom line is this proposal hides deep in the fine print that their energy independence based on the use of hybrid electric plug-in cars which would require construction of nuclear power facilities to increase the power grid to serve these vehicles. Their suggestion is simply- proliferate Nuclear fission plants near every metropolitan area. Therer is no consideration for the environmental impact and huge risk of dealing with the nuclear waste and absolutely no mention as to where all the dead batteries will be dumped, cost of recycling batteries if that technology is even available. The report is fascinating reading but I find it hard to believe it was not written by someone heavily leveraged in the hybrid industry. They completely gloss over E-85 production increase and that it is environmentally friendly.

    My own estimates on the cost of hybrid plugins would be 12 cents per mile just for the battery alone, ( and that assumes a theoretical optimum battery life of 2 years as estimated by the hybrid industry) and 12,000 mi per year for commute use. add to that the cost of electricity and all of the sudden, hybrid doesn't sound all that pretty. Hybrid appears to me to be both trading dollars for pennys and trading air pollution for nuclear and lead pollution. I haven't really studied into hybrids that much because I just couldn't get past these front end negatives. The only positive I saw was that they will gain you favorable smile from the Green Peace nitwits.
     
  17. Capmeister

    Capmeister Large Hairless ApeCutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    I'm not saying there's not some gouging going on--I'm sure there is. But that's not why INTERNATIONALLY the price is high.

    Check out this graph:

    [​IMG]

    And this nifty pie chart:
    [​IMG]

    China accounted for over a third of the global increase in petroleum demand over the last 3 years. That is having SOME effect on the market, and you can't deny that.
     
  18. DonLandis

    DonLandis Hall Of Fame

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    I see your data is a bit dated and the issue is what is taking place after those charts in 2005 and 2006.

    I had another post but it's upload got corrupted and parts got chopped, don't know why but my points in that was that your logic that the market is being affected by the increase in demand. Now I'm not in the oil business but as a small businessman I can assure you that if my suipply far exceeds the demand then adding another 30% of clients for the products where the total demand still does not exceed my supply, will not cause me to jack prices to double! If I did that my competition would eat me for lunch! So there;s the clue for you. The law of supply and demand only works if we have a competitive market place. It seems to me and should to everyone else that the current state of the world is that oil and gasoline supplies are not competitive. Why do you think Congress boasted about an investigation., then got real quiet about it. Do you think they were paid off? I certainly do. Anyway, supply and demand go out the window when it is shown there is plenty of supply, plenty of demand, but no competition!
     
  19. AllieVi

    AllieVi Hall Of Fame

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    Don,

    You've built a case for oil company profiteering being the cause of high prices. If your argument is valid, you should explain why those same oil companies would have allowed oil to drop to about $10 a barrel in the '90's.

    Oil prices are set by commodity markets that are in no way beholden to the producers or consumers. They make large bets on how much oil will be available months and years in the future and what the demand will be. They have to factor in all sorts of natural and man-made catastrophes.

    They are the ones who contract to deliver 10 million barrels of oil six months from now at $70/bbl. If luck goes against them because Osama is successful in destroying a Saudi terminal, causing prices to spike to $80, they're the ones who are out the $10/bbl. They protect themselves by increasing the margin between their cost and anticipated selling price.

    In the example of the 90's I mention, the world supply far exceeded demand and prices fell. We're now at the opposite end of that spectrum with little surplus production capacity and a large potential for delivery interruption. The middlemen are understandably concerned. If I were one of them, I'd want a large margin for error.

    China's surging industrial production is the current cause for their increased oil consumption. Their increasing use of oil will continue to drive prices higher. We'll have to get used to it. They have plenty of dollars to buy the oil - we send them about $200billion each year...

    Our oil companies are victims of this situation, just like we are. The only difference is that it's improving their balance sheets.:)
     
  20. Bogy

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    Don, I think plugin hybrids look really good. I have wondered why those currently making hybrids don't include that option. From an engineering standpoint, would it be significantly more complicated? Raising costs for both initial manufacturing and upkeep?

    From the standpoint of how much extra capacity the grid would require if everyone had a plugin hybrid, or even a pure electric vehicle, I wonder if they take into account that most people will be charging up their vehicles at night, a non-peak time when the grid normally has extra capacity anyway? Personally, before I would want to see major increases in nuclear power plants I would like to continue the development of wind power generators, as well as greater development of power generated from the methane produced by garbage and manure. Part of the governments input in this may need to be forcing electric companies to allow producers of methane generated electricity access to the grid to sell their power.

    Another aspect is doing to private residences what larger energy users have had to deal with for decades already. Peak demand meters. What causes the most strain on the grid are things like everyone going home from work at five and turning the air conditioner on at the same time, plus everything else. It also increases costs, from two standpoints. What I know best is the energy churches use, and how they get billed, in one church in particular, so let me use that as an example. I served this church starting in 1984, after the fuel crisis in the 70's. The church had been built in the 60's, so it wasn't that old, but energy costs weren't a big deal when they built it. It was all-electric, and the electricity was supplied by the REA cooperative. In the 70's the cooperatives installed a peak demand meter and a surcharge was added to the bill according to the peak usage during the month. Why? The cooperative had a coal fired generating plant. During times of normal usage the plant produced all the power the cooperatives grid needed. Normally the cooperative was able to sell power, but during extreme peak periods they had to buy power from the grid. If I remember right, the cost was approximately triple the normal cost of pruducing our own electricity. So in order to prevent peak usage, customers who had the potential for high peak usage had peak demand meters installed, with a surcharge for exceeding a set amount, based on how far over your limit you went. In our case it meant we NEVER even turned on over half the heating units in the building. Well, they got turned on one time. The young custodian must have come out on a chilly fall Sunday morning and decided things needed to be heated up fast. He must have turned on everything. This was back in about 1986, and our demand charge in the winter ran about $50 on an average month. Our demand charge (not the heat bill, JUST the demand charge) was over $900, and it wasn't even winter yet. He never touched anything to do with the heat ever again. While I was there, in cooperation with the cooperative, we installed a heat storage system which saved both the cooperative and the church a lot of money. My next church used propane and oil for heat, but had a demand meter on the air conditioning. The air normally didn't get turned on till June. It didn't matter after you first turned it on, you always were going to be billed for what you used, but once the demand needle hit its highest point for the month, that is what you were going to pay. Demand meters on homes might encourage more people to trade in inneficient air conditioners for new ones, etc. The monthly bill is bad enough, but when you see what you get whacked for peak usage, that is a definate motivor. This would free up capacity on the grid for charging vehicles, at a time of day when usage is at its lowest. In fact, depending on just how long a charge would take, I would think it would be possible to time the charge to begin after most people have gone to bed and energy use is at its lowest.
     
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