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Global Warming

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Buzz112, Feb 8, 2007.

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  1. May 3, 2007 #181 of 819
    Richard King

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    Ah, no, it hasn't thrown anything on it's ear, or any other body part.

    As Al Gore would say, "there's no debate" anymore that FACT points that "global warming" is a natural occurance that happened before man was here and will happen way after man has blown himself off the face of the earth. "Scientists" are now even changing their tune and we are hearing less and less of "Global warming" and more of "Global Climate Change". This way, no matter which way the NATURALLY occuring pendulum swings they get to continue to beg for more money.

    Ahhh, yes, you remember the days when the let's scare them to death crowd was talking of the "coming ice age". Ah, the good old days.

    While I agree that it would be nice to not have to "take millions of cubic feet of materials from deep in the earth's crust, etc". what are YOU doing, personally, to NOT contribute? Even though I am NOT a believer that man is a contributor to "global warming", er, "global climate change", I try not to waste what I have. There is a large financial incentive to be a conservationist, especially with gasoline predicted to be $4.00/gallon in the not too distant future. I have to drive an SUV because I NEED the room for hauling "stuff". I bot the smallest SUV that I could find with the best mileage ratings that I could find at the time and have driven that same SUV for seven years now. I keep the thermostat set at 80-82 degrees, in Florida. I use CF bulbs, even though I am unconvinced on their effectiveness (they certainly don't perform as good old tungstun bulbs).

     
  2. May 3, 2007 #182 of 819
    Richard King

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    BINGO!!! We have a winner. The more likely figure is near the 90% range for water vapor. Man made elements, CO2 etc., is a minuscule part of the mix and has little if ANY effect.

    BINGO!! Twice. Do you play the lottery?

    It's actually VERY easy to understand what is going on. If the "earth scientists" of the world came out and stated that man is NOT responsible for "Global warming", er, sorry, "global climate change" they would have nothing to do to justify their existence and to beg for more MONEY.
     
  3. May 3, 2007 #183 of 819
    Stewart Vernon

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    Only true if it is an actual "issue", which is very debatable... and why we are debating! There is only a little proof that a warming trend may actually be occurring, and no proof that we are causing it any more than any number of other natural man-independent things.

    Just curious... how does a 5th grader get a year of high school biology? ;)

    But anyone with a 1st grade education should realize we ARE goldfish crapping in our own tiny bowl! We are part of the ecosystem, always have been... so technically just breathing causes changes in our environment.

    Incidentally, I personally feel we are causing more harm to the environment by cremation and burying of bodies in sealed decay-resistant containers. We used to die and feed the worms and our minerals and such became part of the earth and life cycle again... There are more people alive now than have ever died according to some calculations... so we are daily removing vital components from the ecosystem by sealing them in containers that prevent returning back to the earth.

    At some point this practice is going to help render our soil nutrient-less and unable to bear crops... and there will be no easy way to come back from that since it will be after starving the earth from lifetimes of dead people and cannot be fixed in a single generation.

    Yet I hear no one talking about this... and it is a very real and calculable change we are absolutely having on our planet.
     
  4. May 3, 2007 #184 of 819
    tucker301

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    Mostly, the same things you're doing.

    -We have three economy cars and one Ford Escape.
    The Escape was bought to have a 4WD available for my wife to use on the off chance that we'd get a winter storm.
    She has to drive 40 miles on some secondary roads to work and her job doesn't allow for weather days, because other people's lives depend on her company running in the worst weather.
    When the weather is fair, she drives a Corolla and my son drives the Escape to and from school, because he has the shortest commute of only three miles.
    He also shuttles 3 other kids, so there's three more kids not driving their own vehicles.

    -We wash clothes in off-peak hours.
    -We use the flourescent bulbs.
    -We turn off unused appliances and lights.
    -We use a programmable setback thermostat.
    -I have upgraded the windows and doors in the home to more efficient models to save energy.
    -I removed the old heating and air system in our home and replaced it with a more efficient one. The duct system was also upgraded to reduce costs and save energy.
    -I will soon be doubling the ceiling and floor insulation, but I want to pull the baseboards and seal the gaps behind them first.
    -I've sealed around all of the plumbing and wiring.
    -I have planted and positioned deciduous trees in the yard to optimize shade in summer and sun in winter to our South-facing home.

    -We try to plan our shopping trips to minimize our outings and maximize our efforts.

    -I'm trying to figure a way that I can ride my bike to a from my office, but it's tricky since I often have to haul stuff as well.

    -I am looking at solar panel roofing systems as we speak, but I'm not sure the costs are recoverable at this time. Any helpful links on that would be appreciated, my green friend.
     
  5. May 3, 2007 #185 of 819
    tucker301

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    Agreed, but breathing and other bodily functions are organic and natural. Plants benefit from our expeled CO2, no matter how heavily it is laced with halitosis.

    It's our unnatural crap that is choking the system.
    Our synthetic compounds.
    Our re-arranging of heavy metals from deep within the earth and into the seas and air.

    There are fools who still light up a cigarette and discount the fact that their lungs weren't made to filter out chemicals carcinogens, even today.
    These kinds of people cannot possibly be convinced that man-made pollutants are doing harm to the atmospehere, but it doesn't mean that the more intelligent and reasonable members of society should stop trying to convince them otherwise.
     
  6. May 3, 2007 #186 of 819
    machavez00

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    I remember watching the show "Connections" (1978) in high school and one episode in particular, "Eat Drink and be Merry" I believe. James Burke talked about the Medieval Warming Period after the Little Ice Age and when it came to an end. In his dry humor he quipped "that put an end to to those lovely English numbers"(wine). Are they growing wine grapes in England now? If not then it means it was warmer then that it is now. Cooling and warming is cyclical and there are those who seek to take advantage to their own ends. Volcanic eruptions have more impact than we ever could. Read what happened after Krakatoa exploded.
     
  7. May 3, 2007 #187 of 819
    Stewart Vernon

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    This concept always gets to me... If everyone did this, then the peak hours would change! Everyone cannot possibly do things on off-peak hours, because if we did... then there would be no peak hours :)
     
  8. May 3, 2007 #188 of 819
    tucker301

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    Peak hours around here are pretty familiar to me.
    Much of our peak level electricity comes from the local hydroelectric plant.
    I spend enough time downstream fishing and hunting to know what the peak hours are for them. They even have a number you can call to get their generation schedule.

    Peak hours have less to do with household consumption and more to do with when the businesses and factories are in the ON position.
     
  9. May 3, 2007 #189 of 819
    jpl

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    Not to mention the fact that doing something off-peak hours doesn't reduce, in any way, the energy needed to wash clothes. Your clothes don't get magically cleaner with less energy just because it's off-hours. Sorry, but I never understood how this was considered helping the environment. Saving money, sure, in some cases, but it still produces the same amount of energy. The most that could be said is that it could, conceivably, reduce the need to expand a power plant - since you're not doing something during peak hours, the power company can produce the same energy, during the coarse of a day, with a smaller plant. But as HDMe, correctly, points out - that's not sustainable. Once everyone does stuff off-peak, it's no longer off-peak. I find it ironic how environmentalists talk about being kind to the environment while advocating methods that aren't sustainable (organic farming, e.g.).

    One other point - we're not like goldfish crapping in a bowl. In the case of the goldfish, the crap has nowhere to go. In an ecosystem (darn, I knew that 5th grade science class would come in handy some day) stuff gets recycled naturally. Granted there are some compounds that don't break down (easily) on their own. I personally believe that, if people are truly concerned with the environment, they should be strong advocates of technological progress. It's those new technologies that produce solutions to these problems. Going backwards does nothing. Romanticizing the notion that we can live off the land and in peace and harmony with nature as a means of solving ecological problems is nothing more than engaging in fantasy and escapism. It doesn't do anything toward solving the problems we do have.
     
  10. May 3, 2007 #190 of 819
    James Long

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    Isn't the idea that by moving uses to off peak times the energy can come from cleaner sources? If the cleanest sources are used first then the amount of time using "dirty sources" would be limited of use is moved to off-peak.
     
  11. May 3, 2007 #191 of 819
    jpl

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    Conceivably, but that goes to the whole sustainability argument. If everyone did this, what would you have? How many windmills, e.g., do you need to replace the power put out by a single coal-burning plant? Answer a whole lot. The amount of real estate that you would need to use just to replace that energy makes these alternate sources not economically feasible. If they were, then they would be replacing fossil fuels. Besides, I think that's an invalid assumption to make. Around here, they have off-peak electricity - we have it set up for our house. It's tied into our water heater. And the energy for it comes from the exact same source. It's still PECO that supplies it... and it's still supplied by the same exact power plants that supply the regular peak power. It's economically beneficial for you and for the company, but it doesn't cause the company to use other sources of energy.
     
  12. May 4, 2007 #192 of 819
    Stewart Vernon

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    The whole off-peak thing wasn't meant to slam anyone... but just something I never "get" in terms of how it really saves anyone anything or preserves the environment.

    Now, on a similar but different note... It is helpful to wash a full load rather than a partial load... to more efficiently use the energy/water to wash the maximum amount of clothes each load rather than just washing say a pair of pants and a shirt for a "special" trip.

    So there are ways that make sense to me... and ways that don't.
     
  13. May 4, 2007 #193 of 819
    Richard King

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    I am JUST starting on rebuilding a hurricane house here and would love to do the solar panel thing, but as you said, I really don't think that the technology is there yet where you can recover the costs in anywhere near a reasonable time period. I, in adding that to the house, also have to consider whether I could recoup the investment when I turn around and sell it in a year or so.
     
  14. May 4, 2007 #194 of 819
    Stewart Vernon

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    One thing I found VERY interesting when moving into my new house several years ago... The HOA here actually has a rule against solar panels!
     
  15. May 5, 2007 #195 of 819
    Nick

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    That's not surprising. Typically, between developers' covenants and HOAs,
    there are rules against virtually everything, including freedom of choice.
     
  16. May 5, 2007 #196 of 819
    machavez00

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    I moved from a home with an HOA. My neighbors called th CCRs the "No Book". One says "no more than 2 birds, dogs, cats, per home. How are they going to know if I had more than two birds?
     
  17. May 5, 2007 #197 of 819
    Richard King

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    How many fish did you have? :lol:
     
  18. May 5, 2007 #198 of 819
    Nick

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    They would have to look inside your alligator. :p
     
  19. May 6, 2007 #199 of 819
    James Long

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    At college we were not allowed to have pets except fish. The way the dean of students said it, "the pet must live in water".

    I should have bought a lobster. Every time I see live lobster in the supermarket I remember college and that rule. :)
     
  20. machavez00

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    Interesting
    Full Article http://epw.senate.gov/public/index....a-23ad-494b-dccb00b51a12&Region_id=&Issue_id=

    Following the U.S. Senate's vote today on a global warming measure (see today's AP article: Senate Defeats Climate Change Measure,) it is an opportune time to examine the recent and quite remarkable momentum shift taking place in climate science. Many former believers in catastrophic man-made global warming have recently reversed themselves and are now climate skeptics. The names included below are just a sampling of the prominent scientists who have spoken out recently to oppose former Vice President Al Gore, the United Nations, and the media driven “consensus” on man-made global warming.

    Even more interesting
    full article: http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,944914,00.html
    Monday, Jun. 24, 1974
    Another Ice Age?
    In Africa, drought continues for the sixth consecutive year, adding terribly to the toll of famine victims. During 1972 record rains in parts of the U.S., Pakistan and Japan caused some of the worst flooding in centuries. In Canada's wheat belt, a particularly chilly and rainy spring has delayed planting and may well bring a disappointingly small harvest. Rainy Britain, on the other hand, has suffered from uncharacteristic dry spells the past few springs. A series of unusually cold winters has gripped the American Far West, while New England and northern Europe have recently experienced the mildest winters within anyone's recollection.

    As they review the bizarre and unpredictable weather pattern of the past several years, a growing number of scientists are beginning to suspect that many seemingly contradictory meteorological fluctuations are actually part of a global climatic upheaval. However widely the weather varies from place to place and time to time, when meteorologists take an average of temperatures around the globe they find that the atmosphere has been growing gradually cooler for the past three decades. The trend shows no indication of reversing. Climatological Cassandras are becoming increasingly apprehensive, for the weather aberrations they are studying may be the harbinger of another ice age.
     
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