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Global Warming

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Buzz112, Feb 8, 2007.

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  1. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I believe I have also seen streetlights (traffic lights that is) that were LEDs as well in recent years.
     
  2. TBoneit

    TBoneit Hall Of Fame

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    A couple of thoughts, I've noticed that the CFLs that have the base up seem to last a shorter time then the ones that are horizontal or have the base on the bottom. To me it makes sense that the electronics in the base need to be cooled. Having burned my fingers when I went to change out a dead CFL by grabbing the base I wonder how much energy was being wasted by a unlit lamp.

    Has anyone noticed that the new Green Flourescents do not last as long as the older ones? I know that sign shops hate them when they have maintanence contract as it means more bulb changes and thus service calls.

    Which brings me to the question. Since the new bulbs have lower mercury and need to be replaced more often do they really reduce environmental exposure to mercury?

    I know people here like the CFLs and I am neutral on the subject. There must be something to them that others are sensative to. My own mother has asked me to stop using them when I replace her burned out lights for her. I get that job as she can't get up to change the ceiling lights and I was trying to save myself the labor of going and changing them.

    They seem to be going to what appear to be LED traffic lamps in my town as well as the walk, don't walk signals. I don't know if they are trying to save on labor or electric. I do seem to recall that traffic light bulbs are designed for very long life.

    My query with regard to LED lamps is that same as My concerns with flourescents.

    They Both need electronics to convert the AC coming into the fixture. In my own experience with CFLs it seems to be the electronics that go bad before the bulb.

    The old style non-green fluorescents in the atic and basement fixtures get a lot of use and last forever and come to a decent level of brightness much quicker that the green ones. Here at work the Green fluorescent bulbs just do not last which is a double whammy as they just don't provide as a good a light to start and being way up in the ceiling are a pita to change.
     
  3. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    Are you talking about tubes or CFLs? As stated before, I have changed 43 bulbs in the last 3 years. All of them have been burned out incandescents that were less than 3 years old (the house is only 3.5 years old) and I changed them to CFLs. NONE OF THE CFLs HAVE FAILED. Sure they cost more than incandescents but 43 failures vs. zero makes it all economical before considering the 75% they save on energy.

    Position seems to have no bearing since about 2/3 of my bulbs are base up in ceiling fans or recessed ceiling fixtures. They are all instant on bulbs, all have the energy star rating, all are not noticeably different in light quality or brightness.
     
  4. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    You have been very fortunate. I've read warnings on CFL packages that stated that the bulbs should be installed base down to prevent overheating. (I didn't buy those bulbs.) The bulbs I bought say base UP for outdoor wet location use. So yes, there are CFLs that are intended to work that way.

    BTW: When did this become the CFL thread ... or are we done with global warming now?
     
  5. FogCutter

    FogCutter Godfather

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    A classic --
     
  6. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Since we proved that there is no man-made global warming, we moved onto other topics :)
     
  7. txtommy

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    From GE website FAQ:
    Can I use a CFL in any position?
    Yes, GE screwbase CFL bulbs can be used in any operating position unless there is text printed on the lamp or packaging that indicates a required operating position.

    Don't know who switched the topic here, but it started with someone disputing the cost/energy savings of these bulbs and their impact on reducing energy consumption. I'd be happy to move back to the original topic.
     
  8. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    Well, at least we proved that some people will not accept scientific evidence at its face value.
     
  9. FogCutter

    FogCutter Godfather

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    That is remarkable. Hope it keeps up. I've used CFLs in fixtures to upgrade the light output. So I can put a 100W equivalent into a socket rated for 60W. And once they survive the first month or so, they just keep running.

    The light took some getting used to, the wife banned them for a bit, but I've been swapping them in a few at a time and now she likes them. And like I mentioned there seems to be benefit as far as seasonal affective disorder is concerned without going to those bizarly expensive SAD bulbs. That alone is worth the change.

    WalMart now stocks more CFLs than regular lights -- had to hunt to find some regular bulbs. Like to keep a few around.

    Did anyone read that flat panel TVs use like 5X the power of a regular CRT set? Plasmas are worse than LCDs, and bigger is worse than smaller. People have seen their power bills go up noticably after running a flat panel.

    The most efficient are the rear projectors with LEDs which actually use less power than a CRT.
     
  10. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Excuse me, but I'm still waiting for "any" proof [other than the saprotrophic eubacteria] that there is no man-made global warming. :)
     
  11. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    Logically that is impossible, because one cannot prove a negative. The burden of proof lies with those who believe so-called global warming is man-made.
     
  12. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    But one could "account for" why the temperature is increasing faster than "normal" [historically].
     
  13. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    I stuck with the same equivalent brightness so it the change was hardly noticable. I suspect the jump from 60W to 100w equivalent is what made is so obviously different.

    It's almost heresy to make negative statement about Plasma and other HDTVs in this forum. The bulk of the people here probably have 50" Plasmas.:grin:
     
  14. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    What is a "regular" CRT set?
    I changed from a 51" CRT RPTV to a 46" LCD. My LCD uses three watts less than the RPTV. YMMV
     
  15. FogCutter

    FogCutter Godfather

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    CRT -- I mean like a regular old TV, not a projector.

    I know this puts people who are into saving energy but love technology into a pickle. I don't own a flat panel, but they are on the upgrade list. Didn't realize they were such power hogs.

    But unlike man-made global warming, this is something we can test just by looking at the specs. I can't find the article, but they went on to say a 60" plasma costs more to run that a refrigerator. That can't be good.
     
  16. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    My RPTY used 230 watts and my LCD uses 227 watts.
    A "quick google" shows "a" 27" CRT uses 180 watts.
     
  17. FogCutter

    FogCutter Godfather

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    Found the article -- WSJ

    That Giant Sucking Sound
    May Be Your New TV
    Flat-Panel Displays Devour
    Power, Even Before Add-Ons;
    Energy Star Blurs the Picture
    By REBECCA SMITH
    December 13, 2007; Page D1

    Prices for big-screen television sets are dropping, but the cost of home entertainment may still be headed up. That is because the fancy screens shoppers are lugging home this holiday season consume far more electricity than their old-school predecessors.

    Consider that a 42-inch plasma set can consume more electricity than a full-size refrigerator -- even when that TV is used only a few hours a day. Powering a fancy TV and full-on entertainment system -- with set-top boxes, game consoles, speakers, DVDs and digital video recorders -- can add nearly $200 to a family's annual energy bill.

    Most consumers aren't made aware of extra energy expenses when they are shopping for a TV. Energy Star tags, a government program that identifies the most energy-efficient models, won't begin flagging the greenest televisions, when turned on, until late next year. Currently, Energy Star judges energy consumption only in standby mode, limiting its usefulness.

    While most new types of TV sets use far more electricity than the old-fashioned gadgets they replace, some upstarts are bigger energy hogs than others. In general, liquid crystal display, or LCD, screens use less power than plasma sets of comparable size. And in the largest screen sizes, projection televisions typically use less electricity than LCD or plasma models.

    A 28-inch conventional television set containing a cathode-ray picture tube, or CRT, for example, often uses about 100 watts of electricity. A 42-inch LCD set, a typical upgrade item, requires about twice that amount of electricity. But the real beast is the plasma set. A 42-inch model often sucks up 200 to 500 watts, and a 60-plus-inch plasma screen can consume 500 to 600 watts, depending on the model and programming, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.

    In the biggest screen sizes, a projection television is a better option from an energy-use standpoint because it consumes about 150 watts to 200 watts, far less than a plasma or LCD screen.

    Assuming each screen is on five hours a day, the annual energy bill for the conventional 28-inch television set would be about $30 a year, compared with about $130 for the 60-inch plasma model, assuming power costs 12 cents a kilowatt hour. By the time other devices are added -- including game consoles, speakers and DVDs -- the cost to power the whole works can top $200 annually. (How to do the math: Something that draws a constant 100 watts of electricity uses 2.4 kilowatt hours of electricity in a 24-hour period or 876 kilowatt hours in a year. At 12 cents a kilowatt hour, the annual cost would be $105.12.)

    "What scares us is the prices for plasma sets are dropping so fast that people are saying, why get a 42-inch plasma set when you can get a 60-inch or 64-inch one," says Tom Reddoch, director of energy efficiency for the nonprofit Electric Power Research Institute's laboratory in Knoxville, Tenn., an independent organization that advises the utility sector. "They have no idea how much electricity these things consume."

    It goes on, but that's the gist of it.
     
  18. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    When used in the vertical plane, the base is meant to be at the lowest point. The lamp should last for it's rated life. Base at the highest point in the vertical plane causes the base to absorb more heat that it is designed for. Shorter life, difficulty removing bulbs from overheated sockets. You are correct.



    Again, they are manufactured so that they will perform optimally when installed base down.

    The electronics you are talking about are actually the ballast. An FL needs a ballast to vaporize the mercury and phosphors. I have never taken a CFL apart, but I would not be surprised if some of the electronic circuits were not energized all the time. Not all tho. That ballast has to fire and then settle right down. All ballasts work in this manner. Think of them as ignition switches. Quick on and off.

    That's been going on for over 30 years. "Watt-miser" tubes are rated at 33W and supposedly put out the same amount of light and last as long as the 40W tubes. A special ballast has to be used for the watt miser tubes and if they are used in fixtures with ballasts that support 40W tubes will quickly fail, usually within a couple of weeks.

    We installed the watt-miser fixtures in offices and as soon as we got high enough in the corporate food chain, those fixtures were changed back to the 40W fixtures. Nobody liked the 33W tubes and they lasted the same amount of time as the 40W tube in similar environments. And that little ball of mercury looked about the same size in both wattage tubes.

    This has been and always will be the problem with FLs of any sort.

    FLs are just harder on the eyes. Your mother is being extremely logical.

    Yup, you are right on the button. The only reason I have ever been able to come up with for using FLs is the longer life. They are a pollution hazard, and few people prefer the light quality. The answer is clearly the gas halogen lights or the LEDs.

    Take a look up the next time you're at Costco. All those round lights are high pressure sodiums. The problem with them when they were introduced was seeing red objects as red. I do believe they have solved that problem. The red boxes inside a Costco and out in the parking lot look the same.

    Rich
     
  19. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Of course they tell you that you can use a particular CFL base up. Call up Sylvania and ask them if you can use 33W tubes in a fixture that uses "starters". They will tell you yes and get ready to sell you even more tubes. I almost got fired over this issue. These companies will tell you anything to sell their products as long as it is safe.

    I'm sure all the manufacturers sell a CFL that "can be used base up". That is a true statement. Will they last as long? I really doubt it. I would think if you put two sockets side by side, one facing down and the other up, and installed the same CFL in both, the one with the base down would last longer. Logic and common sense must prevail...somewhere...

    Rich
     
  20. FogCutter

    FogCutter Godfather

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    Here's a question on CFLs. I replaced 4 regular bulbs that were wired in parallel on a single switch with off brand CFLs from Sam's. They wouldn't work. Nothing. Put the regular bulbs back, no problem. Put the CLFs in other sockets around the house, worked fine. Tried again with Sylvania CFLs, didn't work. Moved the Sylvania CFLs around the house, other circuits, lit right up.

    Just tried it with GE CFLs, fired up fine, working well.

    How weird is that?
     
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