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HD compression

Discussion in 'DISH™ High Definition Discussion' started by hoopsbwc34, May 26, 2010.

  1. Dec 9, 2010 #161 of 257
    tampa8

    tampa8 Godfather/Supporter

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    When I compare OTA to Dish on my Vip612, It actually varies as to the results.

    From a viewing distance, if you really look critically, only sometimes could I say I see a difference, and then only on a closeup of a face, and we are talking an extremely slight difference even if there is one. Other times I cannot see a difference.

    If I stand up close, more often I do see the OTA ever so slightly more sharp than from the receiver. But even then, not all the time. And as some have mentioned, not all OTA is equal. My OTA NBC channel is consistently sharper than my CBS for instance during live programming. That is more noticeable than the Dish/OTA comparison.

    Overall, if you tell me Dish has less resolution or whatever than OTA, I can't dispute that with facts, in fact I might agree. But to my eyes, from a normal viewing distance, I just don't really see a difference.
     
  2. Dec 9, 2010 #162 of 257
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    tampa8, you must disclose a model of your TV before post your observations
     
  3. Dec 9, 2010 #163 of 257
    good

    good Mentor

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    Resolution is hardly the problem.
    But if you're happy with what you see and there are no annoying artifacts, you shouldn't worry at all.
     
  4. Dec 9, 2010 #164 of 257
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    I can't stand those ppl who are trolling out by own personal perseption TECHNICAL ASPECTS of HD signal !

    Then why you worrying about watered down whiskey or milk or gold on your finger or other product ?!

    The HD signal described by standard and verifying by those parameters, not how you like it or dislike. It not final argument here. It not an argument here.
    You can be satisfied with low-ball equipment and no one will tell you it's wrong.
    But you bringing PERSONAL preferences in mass ? Why ? What the value it have if other person is not satisfying ?
    That's why the signal and whiskey should be up to its standard.
     
  5. Dec 9, 2010 #165 of 257
    Hoosier205

    Hoosier205 New Member

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    More people might respond...if they could actually understand your posts.
     
  6. Dec 9, 2010 #166 of 257
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I agree. The HD standards SUPPORT what DISH is doing (and supported it when DirecTV used the same process). Compression techniques are simply a fact of life when dealing with HD distribution.

    But in the end it IS how the output is perceived by the viewer that really matter. Millions of DISH customers with HD equipment are watching DISH's HD channels. How many know the first thing about the standards involved or what bitrate or compression is good or bad? All they know is what they see.

    Satellite and cable providers are in the business of delivering a signal acceptable to their customers. At the end of the day, if the signals are acceptable that is all that matters.

    Perhaps it is not up to the standard some people want it to be ... but it does meet the industry accepted standards for HD. It is still whiskey.
     
  7. Dec 9, 2010 #167 of 257
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Well, if you did work for engineering [EE] and seen how ummm, we're testing signals, etc then you should know the postulate - results are independent of the tester, but depend on device-under-test [DUT] and test equipment deviation.

    OK, lets say we are in that room where the encoders operating ( I recall I did post the point ), you are this shift engineer, something goes out of spec ("what spec you'll ask ? - I should follow my instincts and sustain the processes, not the '****ty' specs ! I see how it should be by own eyes !" Right ?) - how you'll handle it ? By looking to the 20" control monitor in that room ? Or will check specialized equipment what do show objective characteristics of current signal/channel ?
     
  8. Dec 9, 2010 #168 of 257
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    In that room I'd follow the instructions given by the employer. If they pay my paycheck, they set the specs ... and while I might disagree with the specifications followed, and might engage in conversation designed to improve the specifications, it would still be my job to follow the approved specs. If corporate says put eight or nine HD channels on a transponder and run them with a specific setting the uplink technician has little choice in the matter. I won't pretend otherwise.

    So now we find ourselves outside of that room ... away from the encoders and a lot closer to the consumer decoders. In the position of the millions of customers who do not have access to specialized equipment. They have decide if the content and quality is worth what they are paying based only on what they can observe.

    A few people might be swayed by some statistics they found on the Internet ... perhaps even the statistics in this thread (which can be found on the Internet). But at the end of the day, if they are happy with what they see on the TV (and how much they are paying for it) that is all that matters.
     
  9. Dec 9, 2010 #169 of 257
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    So, it's become corporate policies/rules - ie subjective and driven by other meaning then signal quality ...

    Then we came to the point, if I'd like a cognac I will pay $xxx, if someone like a bourbon he will pay $xx; but who should pay $xxx for bootleg watered down spirit, same fair price and be agree - yeah that owner is struggled with approved oak barrels, we must are satisfied with the sh!t. :D
    I used as figure of speech, please don't dissect the example itself.
     
  10. Dec 9, 2010 #170 of 257
    tampa8

    tampa8 Godfather/Supporter

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    I don't think I "must" do anything before I post, but I will. :D LG LCD 46"
     
  11. Dec 9, 2010 #171 of 257
    tampa8

    tampa8 Godfather/Supporter

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    Which is why I said "Resolution or whatever." And you are right and is what I was getting at. I can see no appreciable difference, no matter how much technical info is available that might dispute that so I don't have to worry.

    Reminds me of a home theater forum many years ago that had settings by an expert for my rear projection TV. I posted that one of them, Edge Sharpness, looked better to me on low, rather than off as suggested. The expert had all kinds of AVIA pics and reasons I was wrong. To my surprise, many posted they agreed with me after reading my post when they tried it, and thought the picture, especially words/letters were indeed better. Sometimes numbers lie.....lol
     
  12. Dec 9, 2010 #172 of 257
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    If not, then anything what you post based on pure subjective opinion.

    BTW, you didn't answer again - your model.
     
  13. Dec 9, 2010 #173 of 257
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    In essence, yes. The ownership of DISH, DirecTV or a cable system chooses to do it any way they want (or any way the board allows them to, if so constrained). The decision of bitrates and channels per transponder is not decided by the guy or gal in the room monitoring quality of transmitted signal (if you want to limit discussions to the guy in the room at the uplink).

    If you want to talk about the guy or gal in the room paying a satellite bill all most of them have is a TV. What TV varies. And most of them could not care less about the numbers as long as their picture - as perceived by them - is clear.
     
  14. Dec 9, 2010 #174 of 257
    HobbyTalk

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    What I want to know is what HD "spec" does Dish not follow?
     
  15. Dec 9, 2010 #175 of 257
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Actually, by result of the discussion (what comes up again and again) we have big dark loophole where is no standards for quality of HD/SD picture, so that allow those companies do anything what they want.

    So, we will struck with our Kuros/BR disks forever. :(

    [Oh, what the hell DVD/BD publisher doing ?! The should follow that trench what DTV/dish/cable dig for them.:p]
     
  16. Dec 9, 2010 #176 of 257
    HobbyTalk

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    So you are talking about a matrix that has no spec and it is all just your personal opinion?
     
  17. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Standards apply and DISH and DirecTV are meeting those standards. The industry has set the standard to where the industry needs it to be. While some (not thinking you) have wanted to write their own standard that exceeds the industry's or apply standards that were written for other mediums than satellite broadcast, it doesn't change the fact that the industry standards are being met.

    The standards actually allow more compression, including resolution reduction, than is currently being done to HD satellite broadcast. Trying to fit big things in a small space is a challenge ... especially when the average Joe or Jane customer just wants more big things - and different big things - not better quality big things.

    This leaves the market open for BluRay and others to provide a high quality (and higher cost) alternative to satellite/cable broadcast.
     
  18. good

    good Mentor

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    You hit the nail wright in the head but, unfortunately, some people doesn't understand (or don't accept) that, in such corporate business, commercial side dictates the rules or, simply put it: sell more with minimum investment (hint: recession is still here).

    For those who'd like to pay $xxx for some brand cognac or something, simple advice: turn your dish to broadcasters. Because they has just a few channels on one hand, having a different (read real) respect for people, and knowing that their signals shall be f**ked one way or the other, usually they use sufficient bandwidth, with CBR and also they might use contribution encoders (a different breed).

    Talking about "big dark loophole where is no standards for quality of HD/SD picture", actually there are some ... in Europe, e.g. EBU – Tech 3334, from which I quote:

    "- For the 1080i/25 HDTV format and horizontal sub-sampling to 1440 samples a minimum
    bitrate of 12 Mbit/s is recommended
    - For the 1080i/25 HDTV format and no horizontal sub-sampling a minimum bitrate of
    12 - 14 Mbit/s is recommended"


    ... and, so what?!? Obviously that doesn't stop BBC broadcasting BBC HD channel in UK at 1440x1080i/25 ... at 9 and a half or so Mbps! Some rules can be bend ... others can be broken.
     
  19. HobbyTalk

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    The local stations should also be blamed. Most in our area have 2 sub-channels so you've already lost 1/2 the available bandwidth even using OTA.
     
  20. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Is there FCC petition's writer ?

    We could begin a campain for new petition to assign grades to HD stream.
    It is not normal when "HD" label assigned to Blu-Ray disc and sat/cable providers shamelessly using same name for their mediocre 'hd' channels.

    You will never agree if a cognac labeled as XO while it VS !
     

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