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Hey Phrelin - You've mentioned two Californias before ---

Discussion in 'The OT' started by SayWhat?, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. Dec 22, 2013 #1 of 106
    SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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  2. Dec 22, 2013 #2 of 106
    Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    I'd support that completely.
     
  3. Dec 22, 2013 #3 of 106
    phrelin

    phrelin Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    I got a PM from another member on this subject a couple of days ago with this link as somehow I missed any info on Draper's effort. I'm supporting it. I don't think it's perfect but they've dealt well with the fact that there isn't any convenient way to ignore the existing county structure. The initiative has been submitted to the Attorney General's Office for review and a PDF can be downloaded here.

    The problem, of course, is that Congress would have to approve it. Convincing the other states that dividing Californians who now only have two Senators, both Democrats, into six states could be a daunting task. But they've divided up the political orientation as well as one can. My proposal for three Californias likely would result in three Democratic Senators and three Republican Senators. This proposal would appear likely just double those those numbers. One can't be sure, of course.

    There is, however a flaw in the proposal and I'm not sure what the AG is going to do with it. Initiatives generally must address only one subject. But these folks have included a county charter government provision that would make the charter counties free to ignore the Legislature when it comes to something a new piece of legislation does not fund the cost of implementation. It's a pretty radical restructuring of California government as right now counties are a mixture of local government and administrative arm of the State.

    But I don't have the economic resources of a Tim Draper and I don't agree with some of his political views. But if the AG let's it on the ballot or tells them to take out Section 4 and resubmit it, I'll support it. The measure's web site can be viewed here where you can get on their email list, though the site is still not much.
     
  4. Dec 22, 2013 #4 of 106
    gov

    gov Legend

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    Cramming 5 more stars on the flag ain't gonna be pretty. Might as well throw in DC and Puerto Rico and make it 7 so we don't have to all buy new flags too many times.


    :coffee
     
  5. Dec 22, 2013 #5 of 106
    SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    I've got a better idea. Give the blue and purple to Oregon, the red and yellow to Nevada, the orange to Arizona and the green to Mexico.

    Then we can gut the flag back to 49.

    Or leave it at 50 and admit Puerto Rico.
     
  6. Dec 22, 2013 #6 of 106
    dpeters11

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    Just add another row of 5 stars. For 57, you can alternate 10 then 9 for 6 total rows.
     
  7. Dec 22, 2013 #7 of 106
    AntAltMike

    AntAltMike Hall Of Fame

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    There are about a dozen rural, farm subsidy states that won't want their 2% interest in the Senate diluted.
     
  8. Dec 22, 2013 #8 of 106
    gov

    gov Legend

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    And the flip side, 12 senators instead of 2 wanting federal bailout giga-bucks for California fiscal implosion/bankruptcy.

    I'd suggest (insist actually) California be debt free before any tinkering with the 6 way split and be about 10 years into consistently living with balanced state budgets.

    And if they did that, there might not be near the support for the split . . .
     
  9. Dec 23, 2013 #9 of 106
    Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

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    Is there a debt free state in our Union? I rather doubt it.

    Second, how much extra bucks for all the administrators that'd be created with the new states?
     
  10. Dec 23, 2013 #10 of 106
    lugnutathome

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    This could have happened sort of but for WWII starting

    http://jeffersonstate.com

    Did a bicycle tour of Jefferson back in 09

    Don "interesting concept. . . The six states amusement park" Bolton
     
  11. Dec 23, 2013 #11 of 106
    inkahauts

    inkahauts DIRECTV A-Team

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    Not sure what splitting up the state would truly accomplish to be honest... I can't think of much it'd help, if anything.
     
  12. Dec 23, 2013 #12 of 106
    Drucifer

    Drucifer New Member

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    When will they do Texas?

    When does Staten Island leave NY and become part of NJ?

    When does NYC & Long Island break away from NYS?
     
  13. Dec 23, 2013 #13 of 106
    phrelin

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    For nearly a decade I have had a web site that explains the problems of having a state so large with clear geographic and sociological divisions and advocating dividing California into three states. It also has a brief discussion of California as a separate nation.

    California is a net federal revenue producing state, meaning its taxpayers send more revenue to the Feds than the Feds expend in the State.

    If you look at the map on my web site, the blue area would continue to be a Blue State, the pink would be a Red State, and the yellow would tend to divide. The latter presents the significant marketing challenge for my idea within the State. The six state idea has a chance inside California, but would be a hard idea to sell to Congress.

    The thing is, California is too big to be fairly governed and a workable state is the core of government in this country. Even a North/South division essentially at the Tehachapi Mountains would be more workable than what we have now. Remember we have counties that have larger populations than many states and we have counties that are geographically larger than some states. We have the highest point in the lower 48 and the lowest point in North America. Southern California is basically located in a desert. Part of Northern California is in the Pacific Northwest. The Central Valley is a large agricultural river plain that was once mainly a swamp. The problem is these are geographically diverse huge areas.

    I am a realist. I don't see splitting the state as an achievable solution. We need a new state constitution that divides the state into six to eight provinces that assume many functions now assigned by the existing State Constitution to State government. But it would be nice to have 12 Senators of diverse political views each perhaps reflecting the views of more than 6 million people as opposed to the two old ladies, both of whom I first met decades ago, who couldn't reflect the views of our hugely diverse population of 38 million.
     
  14. Dec 23, 2013 #14 of 106
    James Long

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    The biggest problem is the politics ... Eastern states will not want 10 more senators from the west. Even if the end up being split fairly evenly between the parties. The the powers that are like the powers they have.

    Best case scenario is the new senators split evenly and we have the same issues as we have today ... so no benefit.

    Within the state it breaks up a big block of electoral votes. Right now if you get one more vote than the next party (it doesn't even have to be 50% of the vote due to third parties) you get the entire state. That makes California a big prize. Split it up and you're affecting the presidential election along with the makeup of the senate.

    If California wants to change the way they assign electoral votes and give up their position as a "big prize" they could simply do one electoral vote per congressional district plus two votes for whomever wins the statewide popular vote. That way they only hurt themselves and not the rest of the nation. :)

    If statehood was easy DC and PR would be states. I don't see anything coming of the discussion to split any current state - and don't really expect to see any states added.
     
  15. Dec 23, 2013 #15 of 106
    Rich

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    Texas might be. I know they put more money into the federal government than they get back.

    Rich
     
  16. Dec 23, 2013 #16 of 106
    yosoyellobo

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    How would they split the water resources?
     
  17. Dec 23, 2013 #17 of 106
    Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

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    Water would be governed by existing contracts. Interesting to speculate when one of those contracts would be abrogated.... and then what!, though.
     
  18. Dec 23, 2013 #18 of 106
    Gloria_Chavez

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    Why would Texas approve a split in California without ensuring the same treatment for itself. Then Illinois would want to split into at least two states. And I'm certain Florida would want to as well.

    Draper's proposal makes as much sense as Thiel's dream of a dystopia off the Bay Area.
     
  19. Dec 23, 2013 #19 of 106
    Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

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    Wouldn't most of NY State be happy without most of the Boroughs of NYC??
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Dec 23, 2013 #20 of 106
    Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    Leave it to Phrelin to put out a cogent and reasonable explanation as to why this would never happen. While Phrelin and I live in very different places, one thing we share is a disdain for the fact that the coastal cities take up way too much resources and make it impossible for our voices to be heard. It would be nice to see some sort of solution.

    My idea in the past has been to make any city over 5 million (or whatever arbitrary number suits you) a "District of Columbia" separate from the state which surrounds it. At the very least that would split out NYC, LA, SF, etc. away from the rural areas which persistently live in their shadows.
     

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