1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Hopper Freezing

Discussion in 'Hopper System Support Forum' started by hd_newbie, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    21,614
    143
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    Pat,
    1st - no one official representative will disclose such numbers/%% in public. And you knew that !
    2nd - I did ask you: what number of devices you representing by using words "to most of us" ?
     
  2. patmurphey

    patmurphey Godfather

    870
    51
    Dec 21, 2006
    "us" - Hopper customers - looking at the small numbers of this complaint on this and other boards, I express my opinion in terms of "most".
     
  3. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    21,614
    143
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    If you are not aware,
    there are roughly 1,000 posters on these forums who are members and posting relevant info.
    From 14 millions of customers who don't participate in Internet discussions.
     
  4. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,579
    374
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    I grant you this is a small sampling of customers... but are you meaning to imply that most Hopper customers are experiencing these problems even if there's no way you could possibly know about it since they don't post online about it?

    I wouldn't make that leap.
     
  5. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    21,614
    143
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    Well, you try to skew it ... I see.

    My meaning is - since we don't have statistically representative number of dish users here and there (nor hiding statistics by the company, yeah it's TOP SECRET) , we shouldn't use words: "most of us".
     
  6. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    45,320
    914
    Apr 17, 2003
    Michiana
    Why is it a couple of complaints on a forum are interpolated as if half of the customers with the equipment are seeing the failure? And we are to assume that the people pushing that theory are right even though they offer absolutely no proof that any problem is more widespread than the few reports?

    How about we accept the reports at face value? Note that a few people are complaining - perhaps try to see if there is any obvious reason why their equipment is performing different than customers who are seeing no problems at all.
     
  7. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    21,614
    143
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    If we will look into root of the issue, we will find: the DVR [H] and remote client [J] designed and built with relatively high working temperature inside of the boxes: 60+ degree Celsius.
    What is lead by any physical analysis to freezes and hanging and other adverse effects.
     
  8. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    45,320
    914
    Apr 17, 2003
    Michiana
    An interesting theory ... but what is the threshhold? At what temperature does the Hopper cease to work? Can there be no other cause?

    DISH isn't going to be able to download a new fan into the Hopper as part of S222 (or a future release) ... so perhaps instead of always coming back to the same unproven answer why not look for differences between working systems and systems with problems?
     
  9. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,579
    374
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    Unless you have absolute proof and a larger sampling of customers to associate temperatures and specific failures... all we are doing is talking in circles and not actually helping people with problems.

    As James noted... even with our small sample size at DBSTalk we are seeing only a handful of these kinds of complaints... and while there is the possibility of overheating, most of the time people who have had overheating issues with Dish receivers have turned out to be people who installed their receivers in areas with poor ventilation... and not design-issues that cause regular overheating for most customers.

    There's just no history I can see to support that as a notion... so talking in circles about it clouds whatever the actual problem is, and doesn't allow others to actually discuss other potential solutions.
     
  10. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,579
    374
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    To diverge a bit...

    One thing we have seen come up from time to time... are power issues. Some customers have had faulty UPS or power strips, or even faulty home wiring that led to issues. If at all possible, plug into the wall instead of a power strip and see if that makes a difference. Consider a powerline conditioner as well... and if possible, try another outlet to see if there are any improvements.

    I know wiring (coax) can also introduce interesting issues, especially if you are dealing with switches and now those single/dual nodes... a substandard cable might cause unexpected issues if a signal loss happens at a time when the receiver isn't in a position to recover properly. That's admittedly something to address in firmware, but also something that could be eliminated by replacing cables.

    Last, but not least... The 922 had a problem months ago where it would lockup or reboot with ethernet connected. I'm not sure what the problem was or what the fix implemented... but the temporary workaround was disconnecting internet. Apparently something in that particular firmware didn't like the internet.

    Some of these are easier to isolate/replace/test than others for a consumer... but all are easier to address than overheating that may or may not be happening.
     
  11. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    21,614
    143
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    Do you know what is a difference between us ?

    I'm a practicing eng, I'm do analysis, measures, fixing devices like DVR on component level (and SW where is it possible). You are just posters here. Talking heads. Actually typists. :)

    I did measures and implement one part for fix the poor design - installed onto CPU four times bigger heat-sink with own fan. No more freezes, regardless of FW version, what does show it's a correct option. Next step will be add bias current to main fan - to create 'floor' airflow, because the sat tuner's chips produce too much heat which poorly dissipating by PCB, adding to that it create thermal stress on electrolytic capacitors used in secondary voltage rails.

    Perhaps, all my attempts to get into the root of a problem looks too comprehensive for you ? You just feeling uneasy in unknown to you electronics' design and functioning ...
    And try to find solid ground in something more familiar ?

    Unfortunately, a method by kicking tires will not fix the engine.
    Regardless now many Mods will do that. :D
     
  12. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    45,320
    914
    Apr 17, 2003
    Michiana
    P, you're still showing your bias. You have diagnosed the problem and refuse to see that it could be any other cause. You have also not proven that your guess (however educated) is correct.

    So many fixes have come for the Hopper since it was introduced earlier this year. None have come from DISH "downloading" a new fan into the machine. The real experts in this matter, DISH's engineers, are not following your opinion.

    Perhaps those who have improperly installed their devices need to compensate for their error by adding additional ventilation. There are plenty of people with normal installs, even warm equipment (temperatures posted in appropriate thread) that are not seeing the issues.
     
  13. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,579
    374
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    I don't post in absolutes? :)

    All I will say about that is... that's a poor attitude to have. There is a hint of "you should be lucky I stoop to talk to such as you" in a response like that... and that sentiment doesn't help anyone.

    I don't believe anyone has asserted that the Dish/Echostar receivers are of perfect design for function or thermodynamics. In fact, most technology could stand to benefit from some better design.

    I used to work for a company that was constantly looking to improve its internal cooling for servers as well as options for cooling the cabinet in which those servers were installed.

    It will constantly be the tail that the dog chases, probably until the end of time, in advancing technology.

    But that isn't the point, and I think you know it despite your assertions.

    You may or may not have found a "solution" for one specific set of hardware in your hands in a given situation. Despite your assertions far more people appear to be having little to no problems with their Hopper.

    I can't speak to the Hopper... but as I mentioned recently, I have my 922 in a home with no central air... in NC... in the summer... and I'm not experiencing any overheating issues even on days when the internal house temperature has risen above 90 degrees this summer!

    I'm quite miserable... but my receiver hasn't exhibited any problems.

    IF, as you suggest, there is a general problem with Dish technology and poor cooling design... then how would you explain my lack of failures in a very much less than ideal installation?

    Perhaps... but changing out the engine is a very inefficient way to fix a problem too!
     
  14. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,579
    374
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    To get back to the original poster... and freezing in standby.

    When "frozen" in standby... is the screen saver bouncing around the screen? It moves slowly, so you have to watch for a minute to be sure.

    IF the screen saver is moving, then the receiver is not really frozen in the same way as if the screen saver is stationary.

    My 922 used to have days when it wouldn't respond to the remote. It wouldn't wake up... but it would record scheduled events so I knew it wasn't really frozen.

    It hasn't done that in months, but when that happened I did have to reset it... and I never found a pattern to why it would stop responding to the remote.
     
  15. 3HaloODST

    3HaloODST Godfather

    472
    8
    Aug 9, 2010
    Well I'm no expert but I do build/repair computers for a living and I know all about cooling components and the likes. Judging from the pictures of the H/J's internals the heat management is far from ideal. For one thing the single fan on the H exhausts warm air out of the side rather than pulling cool air into the other side. The power supply has very little airflow around it being on the complete opposite side from the small fan that barely turns.

    There is a science to the airflow inside the machine and having more fans wouldn't make the machine any louder if properly implemented. I tend to agree with P Smith in that the machines were designed with bean counting in mind rather than ideal airflow. Perhaps Dish feels that the issues caused by the overheating are not quite enough to justify spending more money to add more fans and implement more ideal cooling.

    For example P Smith took a screenshot of the J inside with a fan header that has no connector as it was probably initially thought of by the hardware engineers and then the bean counters later on decided that the fan costs too much. It seems they feel it is cheaper counting on the customer to have nothing less than perfect in terms of ambient temperature and ventilation. For those that don't have that it seems Dish feels it is cheaper to replace/refurbish than to just put fans in all of the machines.

    I have indeed seen issues with computer components that stemmed from inadequate cooling, whether it be inadequate heatsink size or airflow issues. For example, some of NVIDIA's graphics cards, particularly the low-budget cards, have heatsinks that just barely cool well enough, and I have seen driver updates that have made the chips run hotter than they used to.

    Typically chips tend to run hotter under heavier load (duh) so software can make changes to the stability by reducing the constant load on whatever chip you are working with. Heatsinks can absorb heat for a certain period until the heatsink is saturated and bottlenecked by the ability (or lack thereof) of the heatsink to dissipate the waste heat into the surrounding ambient air. The bottleneck can be caused either by too small of a heatsink, poorly designed heatsink (not enough fins, therefore not enough surface area for heat transfer) or lack of (or insufficient) active cooling (fans.)

    Anyway long story short is the software can modify the load on the chip, to make for short bursts of load time, therefore the chip does not reach the boiling point as it is given time to cool off for a second. That is generally why resetting the receiver can make heat-related issues (process stuck using too many resources, etc. ) go away as it is given time to cool off to a more acceptable temperature for the chip.

    All that being said I am certainly no expert on the temperature tolerances for all the parts in the H/J so I do not know for a fact that a lot of issues are heat related but I do know that H/J are designed with the least amount of cooling hardware possible, which I do believe makes them more susceptible to heat-related issues, particularly with high ambient temps and/or lack of ventilation.
     
  16. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    21,614
    143
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    Stewart,
    your phrase "that's a poor attitude to have" is the key of local discussion: I'm doing - you are talking (with the attitude). :D

    Ask you contacts in Eng Dept about validity of my conclusion and ask them why the fan disappear from J ?

    James,
    "None have come from DISH "downloading" a new fan into the machine." prove nothing; they are busy with other bugs and don't need to exaggerate by the outrageous "solution" - the fan controlling by FW and could be used different way. I know the method of smacking an opponent, no need to demonstrate it here.
    I'm just don't have access to the FW source, so my way to fix the mode thru HW type of modification, as I told I would make small change in HW control and the fan will rotate at some speed all the time and will have a room by FW manipulation.

    3HaloODST,
    I have my own suggestion about missing fan in J.
    Perhaps the fan was in small factor (there is no space for 'normal' like in H2k), that type is manufacturing not by many companies, then after short tests they (did commodity manager pitch to eng dept?) decide not install it at all.
     
  17. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,579
    374
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    How is any of the "take apart your Hopper and add your own heat sinks" of any help to the person who started this thread?

    That's rhetorical... because it isn't of any help to him.

    I've offered some other things to check, in other posts, in hopes that he is still reading and might find another solution to his problem that doesn't involve him having to re-engineer his receivers.
     
  18. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    21,614
    143
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    Then the manufacturer and SW engs should make some steps to help customers.
     
  19. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    21,614
    143
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
  20. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,579
    374
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    Why did you post a link to this thread in this thread?
     

Share This Page