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HR20-700 HDMI - RGB vs. Y/Pb/Pr

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by JayAtIU, Dec 17, 2007.

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  1. JayAtIU

    JayAtIU Cool Member

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    Dec 16, 2006
    I'm going to - at the request of Earl - revive an issue I've had for almost a year in the hope that it might lead to something getting worked out.

    I originally posted about the issue HERE. Basically, I have a slightly older JVC HDTV, and it only has 1 DVI input (no HDMI). When trying to view output (of any resolution) on the set, via an HDMI to DVI converter, the picture has a washed out, pinkish tint to it, and no amount of reboots, power-cycling, resolution changing, etc... has corrected the issue. The best way that I can describe it is that it is like you're looking at the picture on the TV through a red/pink piece of glass, or wearing the red lens of a 3D goggle. I've used multiple different cables and adapters, with the same result. I posted more about it HERE, with pictures.

    I've done quite a bit of troubleshooting, and I know that the DVI input on the TV is capable of functioning correctly. My old receiver (a samsung SIR-TS160) had a DVI out, which was used with this DVI in, with no problems. I've since hooked that receiver back up, and it continues to function properly. Also, when I hook the HR20 HDMI-out up to another TV (an LCD monitor with DVI-D in, via an HDMI to DVI connector), the picture is fine. So, obviously, there is a software incompatibility between the HR20 and the JVC. JVC tech support has been no help, and have not said that they would have a software/firmware update that might address the issue.

    So, Earl pushed this through to DirecTV, who tried to work with JVC, to no avail. I also hacked around the service menu of the set, and found that there is an HDMI section (I know that it's a DVI input, but the title of the section in the service menu is "HDMI") in the TV's service menu, and when I change one of the settings, the pink hue goes away. The only problem is that it's a "fixed" setting on the JVC board, so I can't save the change that I make. So, as soon as I try to back out of the service menu, the setting change that I make is lost.

    At that point, I basically resigned myself to using the component outs for connecting the HR20 to my set, which has been fine, though it's messed up the way I want to have things connected somewhat. However, I was hooking up a friend's PS3 the other day to my set, and I used the same HDMI to DVI adapter that I still had left over from when I was trying to get the HR20's HDMI out to work with my set. Well, when I started viewing the PS3 HDMI output over that cable, everything was displayed correctly. Then, when the PS3 started to play a DVD, through the HDMI-DVI cable, I started getting the same "pink-tint" problem I described already. I poked around for a minute, and after navigating the menus of the PS3 for the HDMI options, I found the option to change the HDMI output of the PS3 from Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr to RGB. Changing to RGB corrected the problem! HERE is a link to the PS3 manual portion devoted to that setting change.

    So, after all this, I'm guessing that it's possible that the HR20 outputs a Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr signal over HDMI, and that's what my JVC doesn't like. Toggling that option in the JVC Service Menu must have changed the JVC's HDMI input mode from RGB to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr, which would explain why it (temporarily) corrected the display problem.

    My question now is, can the HR20's HDMI output be toggled to RGB, rather than Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr over HDMI? Enabling this would allow me to go to using the HR20's HDMI output, which has been useless to me so far.

    Thanks.

    Jay
     
  2. JayAtIU

    JayAtIU Cool Member

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    Dec 16, 2006
    One other note on this topic - There's another forum member, jofish, who's experienced the exact same issues, and has the exact same set.

    See HERE and HERE.
     
  3. Richard L Bray

    Richard L Bray Legend

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    Aug 19, 2006
    This issue also normally requires a "switch" for RGB studio versus RGB enhanced levels. Otherwise, there are black level issues. At least that is the case when going from RGB to YCbCr.
     
  4. smiddy

    smiddy Tain't ogre til its ogre

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    Apr 5, 2006
    Hi Jay, (7 post in a year, you lurk a bit eh?) I have the ability to output from my DVD-3910 (Denon) either RGB, or Y Pb / Cb Pr / Cr. I will test this tonight when I get home to see if my set picks up the the right color or does something similar to yours. Is DVI two way communication? I assume since HDMI is that there is negotiation (for automatic detection, as mentioned in the PS-3 manual) between the set and the device pushing the video data. I would assume that the interface you have on the set it used what was available at the time, DVI, which used basic RGB which probably was a lesser risk to getting to market than both or automatic negotiation.

    You worked with JVC, did they say they could change the firmware to support the switch you mentioned?
     
  5. JayAtIU

    JayAtIU Cool Member

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    Dec 16, 2006
    Hey smiddy. Yeah, JVC was pretty much impossible to work with. Unresponsive, and they stonewalled any requests I had to get with an engineer or tech who might have actually been able to help. So, no, I got nothing from them (and I did ask, specifically, about a possible firmware upgrade).

    Thanks for checking on your end with the DVD output you have. I didn't see you mention, though, what TV set / model you have. Is it also a JVC? The same set as mine? Just curious.

    Thanks again.

    Jay
     
  6. phat78boy

    phat78boy Hall Of Fame

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    Sep 12, 2007
    I know you said you tried different HDMI to DVI converters and cables, but can you list exactly what you tried? DVI comes in a bunch of different formats. Some will output just analog, some digital, some do both, and some are single and dual link. So saying you just tried another random cable or converter would not help unless you were trying a different type of DVI cable.

    Here is a good link that shows the differences. It also makes note that some older sets don't like dual link cables. This is an older link, but still relevant. There are many more out there if you do a quick google search.
     
  7. phat78boy

    phat78boy Hall Of Fame

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    Your Denon has dual link DVI built in. This is way you can tell the Denon what to output. You can not just upgrade firmware on an analog only device as it is a hardware issue also. With dual link, the DVI hardware send both analog and digital at the same time. I believe the HR20 is the same way. Problem is if you have a TV that only can accept analog, you need to get a cable that only sends analog.
     
  8. JayAtIU

    JayAtIU Cool Member

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    Dec 16, 2006
    For clairification's sake, my JVC's DVI input is DVI-D Single Link (19 pin). Also, I just re-opened my owner's manual, and happened upon the following sentence in it: "Connect the DTV DIGITAL RGB OUTPUT TERMINAL to the DIGITAL INPUT TERMINAL of the television, and then tighten the 2 screws."

    That statement from the owner's manual would seem to indicate that the DVI input is expecting an RGB based signal.

    phat78boy mentioned the following:
    My experience and troubleshoothing with the HR20-700 indicates that it's output signal is either not RGB based, or if both RGB and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr are being sent, that the Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr is taking precedence over RGB, and thus, my single link DVI input is not getting driven by the RGB output that it requires.
     
  9. phat78boy

    phat78boy Hall Of Fame

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    Sep 12, 2007
    So what was the cable you used before? Sounds like you would need a DVI-D (digital only) single link cable. This would only pass thru the digital signals.
     
  10. JayAtIU

    JayAtIU Cool Member

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    Dec 16, 2006
    I used the DVI cable that came with my older Samsung SIR-TS160 HD receiver, prior to the HR20. Once I got the HR20, I bought an HDMI to DVI adapter, and then used the same cable (from the older Sammy). When that setup didn't work, I also tried a straight HDMI to DVI cable (no separate adapter; all just a single cable). That also yielded no luck. However, that HDMI to DVI cable is the SAME cable that does work with the PS3 (just last week), once the PS3's BD/DVD HDMI output mode is switched to RGB.

    So, I know that the cable is capable of passing an appropriate signal, and that the TV is capable of receiving that signal, provided that the output device (PS3, HR20, etc...) sends the correctly formatted signal. Whatever it is that the HR20 is outputting, my JVC doesn't like it when it gets there.

    Thanks for your help looking at this.

    Jay
     
  11. LI-SVT

    LI-SVT Icon

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    May 18, 2006
    Do you have the color shift problem with all HR20 resolutions? I just read through the HDMI spec and it looks like it negotiates with the sync device either RGB, 4:2:2, or 4:4:4. I am guessing the HR20 is sending one and the TV is interpreting it as another.
     
  12. phat78boy

    phat78boy Hall Of Fame

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    Sep 12, 2007

    Just because the DVI cable works with one product, does not mean it will work with all products. That is my point in asking you the specifics on the cable. The PS3 may, by default, output the way your TV needs to receive. While other devices might not. If you use the correct cable, you will eliminate the multiple ways which a device can send video. This will allow your TV to receive the correct signal with any device as the cable dictates the transmission method. DVI cables are not as easy as just plug and play. This is a big reason HDMI took off so fast.
     
  13. frederic1943

    frederic1943 Icon

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    Dec 1, 2006
    HDMI & DVI are a badly designed interface developed for the purpose of controlling content not a superior signal. Since control could not be done with analog connections, HDMI & DVI were a new digital alternative to allow whoever wanted to control the content with HDCP. So sometimes they work perfectly and other times they won't. It's a problem with many manufacturers making equipment to different standards.
     
  14. rynberg

    rynberg Legend

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    Oct 6, 2006
    Some misconceptions in this thread:

    1. DVI-D interface is digital RGB. Period. Nothing else.
    2. HDMI interface can be digital component or digital RGB.
    3. When a device with an HDMI output senses a DVI input display on the other end, it switches to RGB video regardless of the output setting (component or RGB).
    4. When done properly, the switch to RGB video uses 16-235 for luminance (studio video levels). The HR20 DOES THIS.

    My guess is that your JVC is not properly communicating with the HR20, so that the HR20 is not seeing a DVI-D device.
     
  15. phat78boy

    phat78boy Hall Of Fame

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    Sep 12, 2007
    If he is using a dual link cable it is highly possible the TV is confused by the trasmission from the second TMDS transmitter. This could make some colors much more prevelant then others. Single link is all that is needed for 720P/1080i and is what most TV's have. On the flip side, a lot of cable makers like to make a "universal" dual link cable. This can cause problems on some sets and is why I ask what type of cable he is using.
     
  16. JayAtIU

    JayAtIU Cool Member

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    Dec 16, 2006
    Yes, I have the problem with all resolutions.

    It's THIS CABLE. It's a 19 pin, HDMI male to DVI-D male, single link cable. Those specs would all seem to be consistent with what the TV is compatible with.

    I hear what you're saying here, but as I mentioned before, the PS3 initially output the wrong (pink, washed out) signal. This happened when the PS3's BD/DVD HDMI output mode was set to "Automatic". When I changed the mode to "Y/Pb/Pr", the pink tint remained, and when I changed it to "RGB", the tint disappeared, leaving a perfect picture. So, even with a single link, HDMI to DVI-D cable connecting the PS3 to the TV, I still had to "force" RGB mode on the PS3's end, rather than leaving it in auto mode.

    What you're saying here makes sense. Essententially, the HDMI output of the HR20 is passing a digital component signal because the JVC on the other end is not giving it the feedback that it needs for it to know that it needs to switch to digital RGB output. I especially think this might be true, given what I said above about having to "force" the PS3 into RGB output mode, rather than letting the PS3's automatic mode dictate the HDMI output type.

    This is what I'd been thinking was the problem since early in the thread. However, since I'm using a single link, DVI-D cable, I would think that would eliminate potential confusion via transmission of a signal (which would happen in a dual link cable scenario).
     
  17. JayAtIU

    JayAtIU Cool Member

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    Dec 16, 2006
    I guess now the question becomes, is there a way to get the HR20 to toggle to the necessary digital RGB signal over the HDMI output? I have little doubt that it's my TV that is not communicating the appropriate information back to the HR20, so I'm hoping there's a workaround. I'm even more convinced of this by the fact that jofish (see post #2) has had the same issue with the same JVC set. Perhaps by first hooking the HR20 to another set that appropriately communicates back to the receiver, then hooking the HR20 back up to the JVC while the HR20's HDMI output is still in the correct mode?

    The other workaround that might (or might not) be technically possible would be for DirecTV to implement a menu item somewhere that allows for toggling of the HDMI output modes. As was the case with the PS3, apparently the automatic mode that the HR20 implements is not getting the information it needs from my (stupid) JVC set. Therefore, "forcing" the HDMI output into RGB mode would possibly cure this. Just putting that out there to see if it's possible.

    Also, would the fact that component video cables are currently hooked up (to either the HR20, the TV, or both) potentially influence the HR20's mode? I'm just wondering if the fact that the JVC is receiving a Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr signal on another input might be somehow providing feedback through the DVI input that is confusing the HR20. Either way, I'll probably disconnect all other HR20 outputs, and JVC inputs the next time I troubleshoot this thing, just to ensure that the HDMI to DVI from the HR20 to the JVC is the only thing that is causing any type of communication between the 2 devices.
     
  18. LI-SVT

    LI-SVT Icon

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    May 18, 2006
    Having a manual control at the HR20 would be nice. My Panasonic HDMI DVD player has a selection for this.
     
  19. smiddy

    smiddy Tain't ogre til its ogre

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    Apr 5, 2006
    I have a Sharp LCD (HDMI) & a Sharp Projector (DVI-I)...but I was hoping to understand the technical aspects of this by using what I have to hopefully help. Both haven't had any issues with my DVRs, and my DVD does multiple outputs which I use (DVI, HDMI, Component, and Denon Link)...and it has the ability to change the HDMI type, which I thought yesterday was DVI different types. I was wrong...

    Some of the other posters here seem to understand it better than I do...plus I think you may have nailed the issue. The cabling may be a way to go too, but you have mentioned different ones you've used so it may come down to simply gettign JVC to fix it in firmware...and if not, you may have to cludge a solution some other way.
     
  20. rynberg

    rynberg Legend

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    Oct 6, 2006
    Unless you can find a DVI switcher/repeater (expensive!), I think your only solution is going to be to run component video.
     
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