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HR20 CID finally fixed

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by azarby, Apr 22, 2007.

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  1. azarby

    azarby Hall Of Fame

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    Well, my CID is finally working. After several months of yes it works, no it doesn't work, yes it works, no it doesn't work, It is finally fixed. I actually had time today to go up into the crawl space above the family room and check out the wiring. As I suspected, I had a bad splice connection. As soon as I checked the splice, one of the wires came out of the connector. I clipped all the wires and put on new conectors and presto, CID is now functional on both HR20s.

    For those with intermittent problems, please check your wiring. I was one of those who thought, it has to be the HR20, no way could it be the wiring as I put in the wiring in myself. Well even the best of us screw up once in a while, and I admiit, this was one of those times. My appologies to DTV for blaming them for my self induced problems.

    Bob
     
  2. carl6

    carl6 Moderator Staff Member DBSTalk Club

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    And as someone else noted, grounding of the dish, coax and telephone interface box are all important. Until all of those have been checked and verified good, don't complain about CID.

    Carl
     
  3. Nivek

    Nivek Legend

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    Why would dish grounding make a difference? Mine worked until December, stopped working for a few months, worked again in mid-march, and hasn't worked since.

    /Kevin
     
  4. litzdog911

    litzdog911 Well-Known Member

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  5. Coffey77

    Coffey77 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07

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    While I do agree grounding is great to do I don't believe this is the main problem. I think the OP is correct in stating to check your wiring. On thing the grounding may help with is the return path or the (-) side of the phone line. You may have a bad negative size or lose one so instead of following this path back to source, the return path is now a nice ground. Your electricity will find the path of least resistance back to source which should be the negative side of the phone service. By following the gounding you could potentially be taking it out of it's path. The worst thing you can have is an open circuit which has temporarily closed by using the ground. The ground is basically a back up plan. Making everyone worry about grounding their phone line is just creating a nice little, expensive job for us electricians. :D

    Don't forget, we try and tell everyone to check their coax connections when things aren't getting a good signal, same goes for phone lines and even electrical outlets. :)
     
  6. Milominderbinder2

    Milominderbinder2 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    Because of floating grounds.

    Floating grounds are exactly that, "floating".

    At times they may be close to a ground level voltage of 0 Volts. At other times they may drift up or down.

    Caller ID transmits a lower frequency burst of data that you cannot hear between the first and second rings. There must be a minimum voltage difference or the bit is not seen.

    If you have a floating ground, the voltage difference may not be sufficient to count as a bit. At other times, the ground may float back down and you may be able to receive Caller ID.

    Doug Brott had never had CID working on one HR20 and sporadically on the other. He fixed a floating ground and has had CID on both ever sense.

    Now, this does not explain why for some CID is logged in the Notifications database but does not cause the pop-up. Many still have that problem and that can only be a continuing software problem.

    Nor does this explain why users with proper grounds have problems when other CID devices plugged into the same phone jack work properly.

    We worked out a series of Caller ID Trouble Shooting Steps here.

    Step 2 will catch a phone jack wiring problem.

    - Craig
     
  7. Nivek

    Nivek Legend

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    I understand the issue and why grounding is important. But...

    1) Why should I incur an expense to fix something that the D* installer should have done?

    2) The normal subscriber just isn't going to do this. D* needs to know this is a problem and they need to do something.

    /Kevin
     
  8. hilmar2k

    hilmar2k Hall Of Fame

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    I would suggest calling D* and have them send out the installer to properly ground the dish.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Well-Known Member

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    Well I've been throught the list, and here's my problem. Maybe someone can shed some light on it.

    All my cable fittings were replaced with new compression fittings at the time of my install. My HR20 is connected to a powered multiswitch, plugged into a grounded outlet.

    Every time I reboot my HR20, CID works immediately, but then only up to 12-24 hours until I decide to reboot it.

    If I had a grounding problem, why would it ALWAYS work after a soft reboot? It's 100% repeatable. I can understand how unplugging the unit between reboots might affect the ground, but that's not what I'm doing.

    Seems to me it's more a memory leak in s/w, but, if so, it's apparently not affecting others, so I'm totally mystified. /steve
     
  10. jbihsop1557

    jbihsop1557 Cool Member

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    Well my CID works fine on H20 receiver but come and goes on my HR20. So, sometimes it's the receiver. I haven't had any problem on the H20. My HR20 worked great after the last forced update, but it went out this weekend.
     
  11. Milominderbinder2

    Milominderbinder2 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    Steve, this may very well be a software issue. As a EE I can tell you that components that are not properly grounded can drift up with time so that is possible. I am thinking software.

    Please forgive these dumb quesitons....
    Is your Dish properly grounded through a ground block?
    Have you tested the outlet with an outlet tester? (how old is the home wiring?)
    Have you pluggged other CID devices into this phone jack and they worked?
    Have you tried the HR20 plugged into a different phone jack?

    - Craig
     
  12. Milominderbinder2

    Milominderbinder2 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    That has got to be software.
    - Craig
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Well-Known Member

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    Dish is not grounded, but multiswitch is. It's a powered Terk, so not a passive switch. I believe since the leads are passing through a powered switch, dish grounding is not relevant. I'm far from an EE though, so I could be 100% wrong on that.

    Outlet grounds all test OK with a RadioShack tester. Phone jack is split to the HR20 and a CID phone. CID always works on the phone connected to the split jack. I did not try the HR20 with a different jack, because it always initially works with this jack and I'd have to string about 50 feet of phone wire to do so.

    I can consistently get CID to work simply be doing a soft reboot, which is why I hae trouble believing it's a ground issue. If it failed once after any of the reboots, I would think otherwise.

    Thanks for thinking about this! :) I'd really like to see this feature working.

    /steve
     
  14. Doug Brott

    Doug Brott Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    Steve,

    From what I have observed, the coax grounding situation has been very influential on whether or not Caller ID works in the HR20-700. Honestly, I think that the modem circuitry has something wrong with it .. I have other devices that are not susceptible to this problem just like everyone else.

    I believe that there is a slow build-up of charge somewhere and that charge needs a place to discharge .. The grounded phone line ends up being the ground of choice which may or may not match your electrical ground. The ground post on the multiswitch may not be sufficient for grounding the buildup of charge on the coax.

    I recently grounded my DISH and Coax as in the photo

    [​IMG]

    The Ground Source (Green) is a standard receptacle. I connected the copper grounding wire there and you can see it come down the wall (circled in orange). I have two grounding blocks and both are tied together with a copper grounding wire. There is also a small grounding wire attached to the side of two of the Coax cables (top of the grounding blocks). This wire goes up to the dish and is attached physically to the side of the dish.

    The wires leading up in the photo are to the dish. The wires going to the left connect to my multiswitch inside the house. I modified this slightly this past weekend. The splitter that you see has been moved into the house and a second (powered) multiswitch was added. I now have 9 outputs instead of the previous 8 outputs. Both multiswitches are now grounded by connecting back to the grounding blocks that you see in the photo.

    Other than one little hiccup with Caller ID related to the grounding that I installed this past weekend, Caller ID continues to perform well.
     
  15. Diana C

    Diana C Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    While all these steps are great, there is still a problem that is inside the HR20. I had CID working fine on my box for days, then it suddenly stopped. I rebooted the receiver and it started working again just fine and continues working now, about 4 days later).

    FWIW, I have NCID installed on my TiVos (this uses one TiVo as the CID "server" and all the other TiVos connect to it). The server will sometimes stop detecting CID on the TiVo phone line...usually right after the TiVo makes a call to DirecTV. The NCID server loses control of the modem port while the receiver makes the call and sometimes, it fails to regain control correctly.

    I STRONGLY suspect that the CID application on the HR20 is derived in whole or in part from NCID as so may exhibit the same behavior.
     
  16. Steve

    Steve Well-Known Member

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    Doug, Thanks so much for the detailed instructions. Looks like I know what my next week-end project will be. :)

    BTW, I'm using a VOIP box for phone service, which I could relocate and connect to the same outlet my powered multiswitch is connected to. Do you think that would make a difference?

    Thanks again to you and Craig for taking the time to explain this!

    /steve
     
  17. Coffey77

    Coffey77 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07

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    Phone line is very brittle and it doesn't take much for it to break or become frail. Stripping it wrong/too deep causes impedence and also a poor signal. Grounding helps to create another path for the signal and to help remove this impedance and "noise" that can cause CID to function poorly or signal lacking.

    I have a CAT5e cable that runs direcly to the telephone box outside my house and terminates @ my HR20. I've had almost no CID issues except, I believe, when there is a software issue. Your phone company should have your line grounded on the outside of the home properly.

    I will look into it more but I worry that you may be over-grounding. You're giving electricity different paths to take which, if the main one becomes somehow removed will cause severe issues. You don't want to create a grounding loop within your home.
     
  18. Coffey77

    Coffey77 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07

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    VoIP is a different issue all together. Did you do install VoIP yourself? Did you remember to remove the line from your outdoor box? You could be getting conflicting signals from whomever was your Local Service provider via the box outside your home. Here it was Ameritech and a few other services. Usually, there is a grey box outside your home which has a Customer Access. There is a phone plug that can be removed thus removing outside service to your home.

    Also, grounding with VoIP is tricky. Once you remove that outside drop you may be losing your grounding as well and that's where you could have trouble with your ground.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Well-Known Member

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    The VOIP box is connected to the router coming off my Verizon FIOS box interface box, which also used to provide my analog phone service. The connections from that box to the rats nest of phone lines in my 50+ year old home has been unplugged, so there are no legacy connections left, AFAIK. When they installed the FIOS box, they replace the copper from the poles in the street to my home with a single strand of fiber optic cable.

    Something Doug said in his post makes me wonder if the HR20-100 modem may be less susceptible to this problem? Or what about just grounding the HR20 itself?

    /steve
     
  20. CCarncross

    CCarncross Hall Of Fame

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    Temporarily remove the splitter between the CID phone and the HR20, just running the line directly to the HR20, see if the problem goes away. You may find you dont have enough ringer equivalencies left on your phone line by splitting it.
     
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