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hr24 less sluggish with larger external drive?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by CraterGrillo, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. CraterGrillo

    CraterGrillo AllStar

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    Sep 8, 2006
    Hi All,

    I have a newish hr24 with 1TB external drive, and as the content approaches 60% capacity, the remote gets much less responsive. With 65% used, there are times when the remote won't respond for at least 10 sec. Delete a gob of shows, bring it down to about 45% usage, and suddenly remote is MUCH more reliable and responsive.

    So here's the question, is the sluggishness from the % used? Or is it from the total amount of shows?

    If it's the % of the drive used, it would be trivial to replace this drive with a larger 2TB drive.

    Do any of you know which causes the problem or whether just getting a bigger HD would help?

    Thanks folks!

    Steve
     
  2. Richierich

    Richierich Hall Of Fame

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    This has been discussed Ad Nauseum for months here at DBSTALK.COM and the definitive opinion is that a Slowdown or Sluggishness starts when the drive nears the end of it's available capacity.

    It also has to do with the CPU and the amount of RAM so it is quite complicated and not as simple as you make it but I think a 2 TB Drive helps for what it is worth.
     
  3. CraterGrillo

    CraterGrillo AllStar

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    Sep 8, 2006
    Thanks.

    What about external drive controllers?

    Is there a drive/enclosure combination that works well for a bunch of folks (in the 2TB range)?

    Steve
     
  4. Richierich

    Richierich Hall Of Fame

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    The reason I started buying and Owning my DVRs is that my External Drive Controllers sometimes worked so slow that the External Drive was not recognized during a Reboot and it would Reboot on the Internal Drive because it didn't recognize the External Drive because the External Drive Controller was Slow to respond.
     
  5. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    I think that opinion is probably far from "definitive". I have filled up my share of HDDs and have never once had even a hint of slower operation associated with that.

    Since any modern media-capable HDD can handle 12 compressed HD streams at once, meaning that the throughput is significantly larger than needed for HDD access and the use of the HDD in these DVRs is then but a fraction of what they are capable of, and since fragmentation is not a factor in Linux-based DVRs, I think that very "definitively" points any sluggishness issues completely away from the HDD and towards the OS instead.
     
  6. Richierich

    Richierich Hall Of Fame

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    Well, then "WHY" does this Tendency to Slow Down that is Recognized by Countless Posters here in this Forum only seem to happen when the Drive nears it's Capacity Limitation???

    I agree that it is both CPU Related, RAM Related and Hard Drive Related but since it is a Linear Data Base Structure then perhaps it takes longer to retrieve data that should be accessed with a Random Access Method which is Structural and Not Linear and based on Keys and not Linear Sequential Access.
     
  7. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    No offense meant, RR, but I am fully convinced that it does not. My real experience with that issue says that it does not. I have supplied both empirical information that it does not, which is proof that at least sometimes it does not, as well as solid arguments why it should not. I am on these boards daily, and have not seen only but a post or two ever trying to make that fragile connection. Your statement that "Countless Posters" have reported this seems invalid and without merit.

    Sorry, I do not respond to attempts to baffle us with BS. This seems to be nothing more than a failed and somewhat lame attempt to simply cloud the issue. Real facts, real information, credible theories, those are what hold water.

    And what's up with the unconventional capitalization thing, anyway? Are we supposed to give added credibility to what you say because you improperly capitalize every other word? Seems to undermine your points instead, ironically enough.
     
  8. Richierich

    Richierich Hall Of Fame

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    I hope Rich584 doesn't see this Post or he will Chime in Big Time!!!

    By the way, my Caps are a personal thing to make certain emphasis on certain parts of my dissertation, it is my Signature but perhaps you haven't seen any of my Posts before.
     
  9. CraterGrillo

    CraterGrillo AllStar

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    Sep 8, 2006
    So am I to assume that SOME hr24s do NOT experience this sluggish response? This includes completely ignoring the remote for up to 10 seconds?

    If that's the case, I'll send this one back and keep doing so until I get one that works properly.

    Is that the only solution?

    I'm just trying to figure out if this is device-specific or a systemic-design-fault (hw or fw).

    And moreover, has ANYONE solved this sluggishness by changing something on their system?

    Steve
     
  10. Richierich

    Richierich Hall Of Fame

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    Yes. Try This.

    Start by pressing and holding mute first, then select at the same time until the green light on the remote flashes twice, just like any other programming remote step.

    Next, press the numbers 9 6 3 and the green light should flash twice again.

    Finally, press the "Chan Down" button and the green light should flash twice again.
     
  11. CraterGrillo

    CraterGrillo AllStar

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    Done. Made no significant difference for my hr24-100. (oddly the last double-flash wouldn't occur if I remember correctly - what does that mean? Did it not take effect?)

    Also my initial problems were IR-specific (1/3 of all presses missed), so I did try the above and eventually move to RF mode. It's in RF mode now and still gets sluggish and misses keys when the disk was more full.

    Steve
     
  12. Richierich

    Richierich Hall Of Fame

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    Have you replaced your batteries with Fresh Batteries?

    Have you eliminated IR Interference from perhaps your Display Device (TV)?

    Is anything Blocking the IR Sensor?
     
  13. CraterGrillo

    CraterGrillo AllStar

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    About the batteries, NO I didn't replace them. But the system was new, AND I tried my older remote, as well as my pronto universal. Just to be complete I also extended the length of time the codes were sent on the pronto. No changes.

    As far as IR interference, that could be I suppose, except that wouldn't affect the RF mode at all.

    And nothing is blocking the ir sensor, and I did try putting cardboard above and below the hr24 sticking out to eliminate nearby light. No change.

    I'm a firmware engineer who works with complex hardware all the time. So I'm just trying to narrow this down to figure out if I should be spending my energy 1) getting a bigger hd with possibly different enclosure, 2) changing to a hr24-500 on the possibility that there's a hw difference in that version.

    I already swapped for a different hr24-100 (from the same build-lot I'm sure since it was at the same small retailer and only a day apart) thinking it was a hardware problem.
     
  14. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Tom, I've tested quite a few HDDs in external enclosures of all sorts and they all slowed down between 30 to 20 percent Available. Don't pretend to know why, but I know it happens. I filled different sized HDDs from 750s to 2TBs and they all reacted in the same manner. The HR just bogs down to the point where you'd swear you had a slow HR on your hands. A simple reboot clears this up. I've used MX-1s, Xtremes, a RAID enclosure set to give me the full 2TB, FAPs, you name a popular enclosure and I've tried it and I've had the same results every time. From what I've seen and learned, the size of the HDD has nothing to do with the bogging down effect.

    This isn't something I've dreamed up, this is empirical data that I spent a lot of time with RussDog compiling for that thread he started that is still running. I have also seen this behavior in internal HDDs, but I can't really say that each internal drive will probably exhibit the same symptoms. The external drives that I tested by filling up to the max and having programming drop off to make room for more programming, all reacted in the same manner. Again, I don't know why, but it happened. That was a couple years ago, but I've seen the same thing happen since then when I forget to clean up the programming on an HR and it is nearly full.

    I don't even know enough to speculate on why it happens, I just know from my experiences that it does happen. I've seen posts from members that I respect that disagreed with me, and I really don't know how to respond to them. I know what I did and I know what I saw. I can say with a good measure of assurance that the HRs do tend to bog down with an almost full HDD. VOS apparently knew that this occurs, he's the one that gave me the rebooting tip that clears up that bogging down effect. I've never questioned his suggestions and they've always been spot on.

    A speculation that I can make: If you take an empty HDD and begin to fill it up and don't reboot it during the process something happens between the HDD and the HR that causes that bogging down effect. I don't see any reason to think it's the HDD's fault or the HR's fault. Something needs to be done to the HR/HDD combo to clear up the bogging down effect and that is a normal reboot. I think this a normal phenomenon.

    Rich
     
  15. CraterGrillo

    CraterGrillo AllStar

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    So rich if what you say is true, and if I want the same # of shows I have now (using say 60% of my 1TB drive), your thoughts would be that moving to a 2TB drive and keeping the same # of shows (now using 30% of my 2TB drive) would help keep the system responsive?

    If that's the case, do you have a suggested 2TB drive (quiet please)? Can I use my mx1 external enclosure or do I need something different?

    Thanks in advance,

    Steve
     
  16. Richierich

    Richierich Hall Of Fame

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    I've had Great Success with the WD20EADS Drives as I have 6 of them and one WD10EADS Drive and they work Great!!!

    Rich can Chime in on what he wants as he is more of an expert on what drives work and which ones he has experienced troubles with.

    TigerDirect.com has WD20EADS for $109.99.

    Here is a Link to the Froogle Search for WD20EADS. http://www.google.com/products/cata...ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CGAQ8wIwAA#scoring=tp
     
  17. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    What you're seeing is normal. Just go thru a hard reboot and you'll be OK. By hard reboot, I mean pull the plug on the HR and pull the plug on the external device. Leave the eSATA to eSATA alone. Wait a minute or so and plug in the external device and give it time to spin up. A minute is plenty of time. Now plug in the HR and let it reboot completely and your slowness issues should disappear.

    It's from the total capacity. This is usually seen around 30-20 percent Available on the meter on your Playlist.

    Yes, you're correct. A 2TB drive will probably never approach 70% full if you do the proper housekeeping. That's why I always recommend the 2TB drives. A 1.5TB is also a good bet, in either case you'll find it hard to fill them up. A 1TB drive is just not enough if you're gonna load it up.

    This isn't speculation on my part, I've done it deliberately time and time again and each time got the same results.

    Rich
     
  18. CraterGrillo

    CraterGrillo AllStar

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    Done this, but because it takes quite a while to boot up and it interrupts recordings I don't like this solution (and it's temporary).

    Awesome. This is the right solution.

    Can you suggest a quiet drive? And will my mx1 enclosure work or should I move to something faster or better?

    Thanks again.

    Steve
     
  19. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    We recommend two external devices. The Antec MX-1 is a full enclosure and is usually reliable. They have large fans inside them and do get a bit noisy, but they usually work reliably.

    My weapon of choice is the Thermaltake docking station. No tools needed. It comes with an eSATA to eSATA cable and is very quiet. The HDD actually sticks out of it and that bothers some folks, but I've been assured that nothing "hot" is exposed. I've got a few of them, they are a bit cheaper than an MX-1 and they are, by far, the easiest to install.

    For HDDs, I'd go with the WD EVDS or EADS. I've got both and the EADS causes my 20-700s to run at 118 degrees as opposed to the normal operating range of 123-126 degrees. This is a good thing. So if I were to buy one today, I'd probably go with the EADS, which TigerDirect.com has on sale today for $99. Don't think I'd buy one from them, I use amazon.com for my purchases, but that's a great price and hard to pass up. The only problem with Tiger is returning something. With amazon.com it's simple and you never get an argument.

    Rich
     
  20. CraterGrillo

    CraterGrillo AllStar

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    Sep 8, 2006
    So it sounds like my antec mx1 will be fine for now, and I can use the 2tb EADS (i'll probably spend a bit more and go with amazon or get it locally).

    Thanks so much folks.

    One final question. I hate the idea of losing all of our recordings unless necessary. Is there a simple way to dupe the data from the 1tb to the 2tb? (he says, hoping he's not opening up a can of worms).

    Steve
     

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