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I, for one, would count this as a miracle....

Discussion in 'The OT' started by jrjcd, Aug 6, 2002.

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  1. Aug 6, 2002 #1 of 19
    jrjcd

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  2. Aug 6, 2002 #2 of 19
    gcutler

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    From what they have done with Conjoined twins, this one was not most difficult as ones they have done (but still no walk in the park) . More reason is was less difficult was very little shared anatomy within head made it easier than it might have been.
     
  3. Aug 6, 2002 #3 of 19
    Richard King

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    amazing.
     
  4. Aug 6, 2002 #4 of 19
    Nick

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    The...
    Two good 'newses' in one week. Much needed. I was beginning to lose hope...
     
  5. Aug 7, 2002 #5 of 19
    jonstad

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    Appears to me it took the genius of Man to rectify a major screw-up of Providence. Why no blame for gluing their little noggins together in the first place, and all the credit for separating them and allowing them to lead normal lives?

    Aren't miracles getting a little cheap lately? Used to be, miracles were worth slowing down the car an gawking at. Jonah, Noah, Moses, Samson, now these guys could put on a show!:) Now, if someone survives a plane crash even though everyone else is toast, a person recovers from a normally fatal disease, miners DON'T die in a mine accident, or sophisticated medical SCIENCE is employed to separate conjoined twins, everyone(nearly) falls to their knees in suplication to the Master. One question! Where was the miracle worker on 9/11? On vacation?
     
  6. Aug 7, 2002 #6 of 19
    Bogy

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    Jon, he was a little busy that day. He was in a stairwell with a man who decided to stay with another rather than rush to save himself. He was with a fireman who directed others to safety. God was with fifty men gathered in prayer above the level of the crash. He was in an airplane with those preparing to make sure the devastation went no further. God was with telephone operators taking messages to give to loved ones. God was in this world that day, like always.
    Jon, you always want God to make it easy. You want him to make it a perfect world or he doesn't live up to your requirements. God did make a perfect world. Except he put humans in it and we screwed it up. God's love doesn't mean never dying, or never having problems. That wouldn't be much of a challenge. Wouldn't be much fun, if everything was always peaches and cream everyday. I hope heaven isn't too perfect. I want some challenges there as well. I just don't think eternity without some kind of challenge would be all that interesting.
    Now separating conjoined twins, that's kind of challenging, even if it was "less complicated than expected." Man, what a kick that must be for every person involved. But nobody would ever experience that kind of exhilaration if there weren't challenges. Things to overcome. Even bad things. Maybe especially bad things.
     
  7. Aug 7, 2002 #7 of 19
    jonstad

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    So how is this significantly different from a world without God?

    The notion of God lives up perfectly to my requirements. It's hardly sensible to demand anything from an entity I don't believe exists. Since I'm in the minority though, I occasionally:rolleyes: feel compelled to point out the inconsistency and folly of the "God concept". I don't resort to sarcasm and irony simply for their own sake.

    Humans built the twin towers and humans violently tore them down, and humans bear responsibility for both. It must be remembered though that the last words out of Mohammed Atta's mouth as steel and glass filled the cockpit window was "God is great!" I'm perfectly willing to accept responsibility as a human for all the evil ever perpetrated by humans. I must insist though that humans also deserve credit for the good. But if there is a God that created everything, then It must have created good AND evil also. Why then is God credited with the good, and humans(also theoretically God's creations) blamed for the evil? Yheess, I know. Man is inherently evil. So your perfect God of goodness created(intentionally I suppose) an inherently evil being as the crown of his creation? Does this sound like nonsense to ANYBODY else? Or am I insane?(don't answer that:p )

    OK, back to the toddlers. Since Siamese twins appear regularly throughout history, can we assume then they are a creation of God and not Man? One of His "mysterious ways" I suppose. Three hundred years ago, HUMAN medical science would have treated them with leeches and hogwart. God wouldn't have been hanging on the surgeon's shoulder handing him a sterile scalpel and sutures, nor would a heart/lung machine have materialized. If they were "lucky", maybe they'd have survived long enough to survive in a circus freak show. The "God" of the day would probably have insisted they be immediately burned at the stake as a manifestation of Satan. Three hundred years later, after countless hours of trial and error, research and experiment, exposure to disease and grinding up and testing leaves and herbs, HUMAN medical science can perform the "miracle" that separated this unfortunate pair. Ironically now, the same God that would have abandoned or condemned them before, assumes a kindler, gentler persona and is given credit for His compassion.

    The only miracle here is the selfless service of millions of doctors, nurses, medical personel and researchers who have dedicated their lives to preserving life and alleviating suffering from Hippocrates on down. If there is a God, it appears at best He's been generally uninterested or unmoved to intervene.
     
  8. Aug 7, 2002 #8 of 19
    xcableguy

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    Thanks Bogy
     
  9. jonstad

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    Yes, thanks Bogy. That's all very flowery and inspiring and no doubt comforting to some. But unfortunately it has no basis in fact. The only concept of God that can be firmly established that day was in the minds of the RELIGIOUS fundamentalists piloting the planes. Certainly they were the only ones whose prayers could be even remotely considered to have been answered. Are you suggesting an atheist or agnostic would not have stopped to help another or direct others to safety? Human compassion was at work that day, not divine guidance. And doesn't logic dictate that despite the probable futility, the fifty would have been better advised to continue to seek an escape for themselves, AND OTHERS? There IS the remote possiblility that one or two MIGHT have succeeded. Naturally though that would have been instantly labeled as a miraculous act of God, not human resourcefulness and perseverance. Instead, they opted for the much more futile alternative of supernatural intervention. I also doubt that the main thrust of the prayers offered up by those who ended up in the flaming wreakage in Pennsylvania was that the plane should crash, killing all aboard, rather then strike its target. They were acutely aware that if they took no action, they would surely die. They chose to act not only to save others on the ground but primarily with the hope they could save themselves. Without belittling their heroics, I think we can all honestly conclude that their primary motive was saving themselves and others on the plane, saving the White House was secondary.

    You, and anyone else, is perfectly entitled to presume God is present in any and all dire situations, for whatever good it ever achieves. My complaint is, and always has been, that despite this assumed presense, the likelyhood of a positive outcome is exactly the same as could be expected by random chance. On the other hand, many dire situations themselves bear a direct relationship to belief in a higher power no matter how twisted or contrary to your own. The outcomes are overwhelmingly negative and much higher then could be expected by random chance without the involvement of divine belief, from 9/11 to Palestinian suicide bombers. However all of this is somehow lost in the din of choruses of "God Bless America" or proclamations that Islam is really a religion of peace or that Israel is the chosen nation of God.

    As I've said, if the assumption is that God created everything, it is inescapable that God also created evil. I subscribe to neither belief myself. Granting the supposition though, it is inconsistant, illogical and contradictory to credit and praise God for all that is good and absolve God of all responsibility for evil. Unless of course you add the caveat that God itself is inherently inconsistant, illogical and contradictory.
     
  10. jrjcd

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    those who are running from God the fastest are those who talk the loudest or type the longest against Him....
     
  11. jonstad

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    Ah yes. The last desperate bastion of the believer rears its ugly head again. Since you find it impossible to accept that anyone could reach the views I hold by logic and reason and analysis of available information, therefore I must be "running from God" or "angry with God" or feel that "God has wronged or betrayed me" in some manner. What other rationale could there possibly be? End of discussion!

    Might I remind you that I am NOT the one who believes in invisible spirits and demons that subtly influence our thoughts and actions. I am not the one who thinks I will live on after my death either in some blissful paradise or pool of brimstone. Neither do I base my philosophy of life in the 21st century based on a 2-3000 year old contradictory, pseudo-historical, bloodthirsty chronicle of a tribe of semitic nomads by unknown authors.

    I'm sure you dismiss religions contrary to your own as misinterpretation or superstitious nonsense and on that we probably agree. My list of misguided theology simply contains one more philosophy then yours.
     
  12. jrjcd

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    :D

    it's nice to be confirmed...lol
     
  13. jonstad

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    Yes, it is nice to be confirmed. As I recall, we had a nice party with cake and ice cream after mine. Since then I've grown up however.:D

    I think the statements I've made are logical, reasonable and based on the facts as they are known. Obviously you don't agree. Maybe your faith doesn't allow for questioning, or even admitting valid questions exist, it wouldn't be the first or last one. Fortunately for me, we are at least temporarily past the time when a heretic's fork could be stuck in my breastbone before being tied to the stake and the pyre ignited. So I'll continue to pose the questions that occur to me. I don't know if you will not or cannot defend your faith, or at least debate it. In any case, amateur psychoanalysis and wise cracks are not a rebuttal.
     
  14. jrjcd

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    actually, what you don't understand is that i don't have to present a "rebuttal"-God doesn't need my defense, and rather you choose to believe in Him or not isn't going to make Him disappear or any less real...
     
  15. jonstad

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    What you don't understand is that if there is a God, He doesn't "need" you to worship and fawn over him, in groups or individually. He doesn't need you to build edifices in His name or point out His "miracles" on the internet. And He certainly doesn't need your money. In other words, He doesn't need glorifying ego boosts from you or any other human. It's also clear that none of this will necessarily make you a righteous person or lead you to a more virtuous life. Yet you continue to practice these things that only a vain God would demand or find satisfying.

    I am not attacking "God". It makes little sense to mount an offensive against something one has a lack of belief in. And you're correct. Any God certainly doesn't need you, or anyone else, to defend It. What I am questioning is your interpretation of God and how you chose to acknowledge Him, your "faith". I assume you must have SOME rational defense for your faith, though your refusal or inability to express it leaves one with the distinct impression that it's at best a weak defense.
     
  16. jrjcd

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    boy, for someone who doesn't believe, you sure like to beat against the wall a lot...

    alol in all, tho, i have to admire you for your faith-anyone who can look at the wonders of creation, the orderliness of the universe, or even the complexity of man and chalk it up to shear coincidence or some kind of cosmic happenstance has a great deal more faith than i can muster....

    as far as any defense i can present for my faith, it is all based on just that-FAITH-something that you cannot rationalize in your mind-it's not refusal or inability on my part-it's more the understanding that you will never be able to comprehend the truth of what i believe as long as you walk down the road you have chosen...
     
  17. jonstad

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    :bang:bang:bang:D
    First, I hate to inform you, but the awe, respect and reverence one feels in the "wonders of creation, the orderliness of the universe, or even the complexity of man" is doubled, tripled, quadrupled when one comes to the realization that it is not some elaborate construct to impress us mere mortals. Oh, I'm impressed alright. But I'm impressed by the natural beauty surrounding us in all forms that is exactly what it appears to be, NATURAL! It's wonderful, it's elation, it's goose bumps and teary eyes. I'm going up on my deck later to catch the meteor shower and I won't be on my knees with my eyes closed. I don't want to miss a single second on this good Earth surrounded by the wonders of nature. And yeah, it pretty much just happened. If it hadn't, we wouldn't be here discussing it.

    And what exactly do you "chalk up" your God to? If the Universe is not "coincidence or some kind of cosmic happenstance", then surely your God must be. Even if God is eternal and infinate, why is God here? Why is there any God OR Universe? Why isn't there simply nothing? Either way, "coincidence or some kind of cosmic happenstance" is a necessary part of the equation. Your way just makes an already extremely complicated equation infinately more complex. AND, there's absolutely no indication that it's a necessary part of the equation. If you can show me one iota of proof why it should be necessary, I will gladly factor it into mine.

    And your faith is "based on just that-FAITH"? There is no other rationale? No reason? No logic? Nothing you can relate it to? And you think I'm walking down the wrong road???:nono:
     
  18. jrjcd

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    undefined
     
  19. jrjcd

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    well, for some reason, i couldn't get the reply screen to work...

    but it was basically just a smiling smiley....
     
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