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internet connection summary of best practices

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Connected Home' started by dlleno, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. dlleno

    dlleno Cool Member

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    Sep 17, 2008
    with apologies for the repeat topic- I have read quite a number of threads on this topic and wanted to confirm/validate what I am reading as conclusions: -- this is in regard to connecting a WH with Genie + GenieGo (and in my case, two additional HR-24s) to the public internet. please review/correct as needed:

    1. The best and most reliable way to provide the internet connection is to run RG6 from the SWM switch to a powered DECA and then CAT 5 from DECA to one port on the wireless router.

    2. The HR44 has built in Wifi radio whicjhcan be used for the internet connection, and many have done this with varying degrees of success. However, even within good Wifi Range this isn't the most reliable.

    2.5 with (2) in mind, it appears that installers may be motivated in some way to use the wireless, to cut install time and cost.

    3. Running Cat5 Ethernet directly to the HR44 can also work, but is not supported/recommended, and in some cases may even cause connection instability.

    related questions of interest:

    a) in consideration if (1) above, if the RG6 run is long it would be better to shorten the RG6 line, attach DECA, and run a longer run of CAT5.

    B) with (a) in mind, nothing prevents one from putting the powered BB DECA near any of the receivers in the house, to take advantage of RG6 already present from a legacy two-wire install, and running CAT 5 to the router.
     
  2. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    A wired CCK even with a Genie is the most stable choice.
    If the Genie is the only DVR, this isn't as important, but using a Genie to bridge the network and having other receivers means the internet connection is off line when the Genie reboots.
    Using a CCK means the internet connection is always present during receiver reboots.
     
  3. dlleno

    dlleno Cool Member

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    Sep 17, 2008
    A most excellent point. Geniego for example would have access to other dvrs on the wh network. Thank you :)
     
  4. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    Woodburn, OR
    How long an RG6 run are you talking? I am running a number of 85 ft long runs plus a 95 footer to support a Genie plus several DVRs, several H25s and several clients with no issues. I use a wireless CCK set to hard wire only mode to bridge that DECA cloud to another 7 Direct TV DVRs, receivers, and clients on a switched Ethernet fabric with runs out past 190 ft. (DECA should work at that distance as well but in my case the sheer volume of over 1,500 ft of wire and 14 devices seems to leave DECA short (and this may be be due to a wiring issue that affects the OTA/DECA frequencies in my deployment)) You should have no such issues with a more normal sized and scaled infrastructure.

    Don "if it is less than 150 feet it isn't really long :sure: " Bolton
     
  5. dlleno

    dlleno Cool Member

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    Sep 17, 2008
    presently, my runs are 90 feet dish to switch, and another 50 feet to the furthest receiver. sounds like I'll be fine :)
     
  6. RAD

    RAD Well-Known Member

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    Dripping...
    Totally agree with this, however I believe that DIRECTV is telling their techs that the first choice with the HR44 is to use the built in wireless.
     
  7. dlleno

    dlleno Cool Member

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    Sep 17, 2008
    seems to be the case, yes. I'l find out later today :D and the best attack against this common practice, it seems to me, is to express to the installer that you don't want a single point of (internet access) failure for the WH system in the form of one receiver. To be fair, the CCK itself is a single point of failure, but it is monumentally less complex and therefore a more reliable "single point of failure". CCKs rarely get rebooted :D :D or (for that matter) suffer from any of the instabillities common to wireless systems, including one's own WAP. .
     
  8. Oct 1, 2013 #8 of 20
    zmancartfan

    zmancartfan AllStar

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    Mar 23, 2012
    Not sure if this is the right place to ask these questions, but I'm always hesitant to start a new topic if I shouldn't.

    I had one HR24 and three H24s connected though a wireless CCK up until yesterday. I upgraded to add one HR44-700 and one Genie client (c31) yesterday. I had the installer remove the CCK and set up the HR44 as the wireless bridge because the HR44 is physically closer to the wireless router, and I thought I might get better download speeds. Everything was working fine when the installer left.

    All receivers are showing as connected to the Internet still, but I'm have some problems. One was that the playlist for the HR44 no longer showed on any of the other receivers today. I rebooted the HR44, and that is now working fine. At least for now.

    The bigger problem is that starting about an hour after the tech left, the various receivers started to disappear from showing as active receivers in the iPad Directv app (latest version). First was a bedroom, then another, then another. As of right now, a little over 24 hours later, only the HR44 shows as being connected. They all show, though, as being connected to the Internet when hitting the dash button, and they all show as having been assigned IP addresses.

    I have rebooted the router.

    When looking at the dhcp table on the router, I randomly see IP addresses assigned to the various receivers. Meaning sometimes the receivers are listed, sometimes they're not. If I manually enter that IP address into the iPod version of the DirecTV app, the receiver will show as connected. But as soon as I close and renter the app, those receivers disappear again. Entering the IP address in the iPad app does not work. The HR44 itself always shows as being connected.

    So, a few questions:

    1) is it preferred to use the HR44 as the wireless bridge, or should I reconnect the wireless CCK? Everything was working fine all the time under the previous setup. The installer left the CCK, so I could reinstall if needed. Wired is not an option for me.

    2) is there any reinitialization procedure I should follow here? The tech didn't touch any of the other receivers other than adding the HR44 and C31 and relocating the HR24. Do I need to clear and reset the network settings on the various receivers?

    3) is this more likely to be a problem with the HR44, the router, or the iPad/iPod apps?

    4) if I do end up reinstalling the CCK, are there any guides anywhere on the best practices of setting that up with this configuration?

    Thanks!


    Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk
     
  9. Oct 1, 2013 #9 of 20
    dlleno

    dlleno Cool Member

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    Sep 17, 2008
    ok DTV came and performed my install, which consisted of:

    * upgrade from std two wire three-receiver 6x8 multi-switch install to SWM-16 + 4-way, three receiver setup.
    * change one of my three HR24s to an HR44 Genie
    * connection to my home internet, using wired BBCCK

    Here is what I learned:

    * the installer was an employee of DTV, paid by the hour and (according to him), paid enough to do it right. This was quite encouraging to me, as previously I have had contract installers come out which had no idea what they were doing except to change out specific parts per scripted instructions. in my area, DTV bought out the local installer and now the installs are going real good at least from my observation. I saw no need to tip or convince him to do something he wasn't scripted to do. he told me what full time installers made (here) and i'l just say trust me its a nice living.

    * they are installing 44s in this area.

    * the installer was knowledgable enough to refuse to impliment the standard ( scripted) wireless connection using the HR44. he said flat out that it wasn't ready for prime time ,i.e. it just wasn't solid enough to use and that DTV has to fix it with a software update before he will use it. So he installed the wired CCK by putting the powered BBDECA in one of the rooms using "the other" RG6 line already there. its up to me to get a CAT5 wire there, which is fine by me. But he did acknowledge that the point of the wireless HR44 was to cut costs and avoid stringing wires.

    * even the best installers are not likely to know anything about GenieGo or AM21s. As for my AM21 he didn't even set it up

    * last week I discovered experimentally that one of my three receivers (all HR24s) would not share its playlist with GenieGo. I verified this by configuring GenieGo on my network (directly to my router. no WH), and connecting a CAT5 ethernet cable from my router to each of the receivers, individually. So you can imagine which of my three HR24s I elected to give up in exchange for the 44. I'll leave it as an excersise to the reader to guess which one it was (a -500 or a -200) !

    * Out of the box, the HR44 would not share its playlist with the Genie go even though the other receivers on the network could see it. This was solved by making the HR44 the primary receiver in my account. the case manager I worked with did not beleive that would help, but complied with my request and was astonished with the outcome. just to emphasize this point: when the HR44 is present on my WH network with two other HR24s, the GenieGo could not see it untill the HR44 was configured as the primary receiver. note that "primary" in this case has nothing to do with WH itself, it is an account configuration item for DTV. no clue why but it works lol.
     
  10. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    Woodburn, OR
    There are likely several solutions you could use but putting the CCK back in the loop would be my recommendation. I suspect the 44 isn't handling the DHCP lease properly in wireless mode and it could be possible to rectify this by issuing static IP addressing for your systems but really just plug and go should be the way. If you do connect back up the CCK be sure to turn off the HR44's wireless.

    Personally I've always run hardwired and never seen these issues. Also having the CCK means your DECA infrastructure won't bounce up and down with the HR44 should it require rebooting.

    I cannot answer all your questions but hope by responding here you get attention here from those who can.

    Don "still wet behind the ears in the network arena" Bolton
     
  11. dlleno

    dlleno Cool Member

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    Sep 17, 2008
    (1) I agree with the previous poster who recommended that you move away from the HR44 as the wireless internet integration point. Having just visitied with my DTV installer yesterday i'm convinced more than ever that one should NOT use the wireless capability of the HR44. Next best choice, if wired is not an option, is to use the wireless CCK.

    I also recommend configuring your router for DHCP address reservations. normally, the DHCP server in your router will dish out IP addresses and release them according to its lease policy, which means they expire after some time period (configured in the router). DHCP address reservations, on the other hand, marries the device to the IP address.

    Also check your router and make sure that you have set a maximum number of wireless devices sufficiently high. you might go through and review all of the various settings in your router, as well. Make sure your DHCP address range is large, too, and that the IP address of the router (this will be the "default gateway" repoorted by a computer) is not within that DHCP range.

    (4) If the devices are close to each other (range is not an issue) and can operate on 5GHz, then I'd suggest running the DTV wireless CCK on 5GHz and the rest of your network on 2.5GHz. this requires a dual-band router and if you don't have that, then use 2.5HGz.. I've never used a wireless CCK ,but would look for things like 5GHz operation, and make sure you use a security method that is consistent across the board (i.e. WEP2 personal). Also try to insure the best possible signal strength by positioning the wireless CCK, as needed. keep its antenna away from metal things or other electronic devices, as far as possible.

    (2) One re-initialization process I would suggest might be:

    1. configure router for DHCP address reservations. If your router cannot be configured in this way, then look at the DHCP policy and lengthen the DHCP lease period for as long as you can. reboot router.
    2. re-setup the network in each receiver
    3. reboot one or more receivers/clients to validate that they come back on line, and verify that they have been issued the same IP address as before (watch the IP address reservations in the router).

    (3) I would point the finger at the HR44 (wireless system) first, and then perhaps to the DHCP lease policy of the router. But mostly the HR44; imho you need to shut down the wireless capability of the HR44 itself and use the wireless CCK. If you have operated several devices (ipads, PCs phones whatever) on your wireless network before, and your wireless router is not ancient, then it should be fine.

    lastly, you say wired is not an option. pardon me for asking, but is that true even for CAT5 cable? No crawl space or attic space available? I ask only because my motivation to go wired is very strong, based on my own experience and the advice of others here. you only need to be able to run CAT5 cable to the wired CCK and then coax from the wired CCK to the SWM switch. In my case I'm having to spend some quality time in my attic :D :D which is very painful but rewarding in the long run..
    .
     
  12. zmancartfan

    zmancartfan AllStar

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    Wow, thank you both for the most excellent replies! I will give this all a shot tonight or tomorrow and let you know how it comes out.

    Thanks again!!
     
  13. zmancartfan

    zmancartfan AllStar

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    Oh, I meant to add that I truly do understand that wired is better. I wish I could. Unfortunately, though, the placement of the cable modem and router is only possible in finished portions of the house, and all wiring is in finished space behind drywall. There's no possible way I can tie into a wired system without tearing into drywall, and well, the boss won't have any of that.... :grin:
     
  14. dennisj00

    dennisj00 Hall Of Fame

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    The WCCK does do 5Ghz and does a good job. Distance and obstructions does affect the 5 band but for the 'average' home, it should work nicely.
     
  15. dlleno

    dlleno Cool Member

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    Sep 17, 2008
    ok good news on the 5GHz. now if only the router is dual band.... seriously if the boss really doesn't want to see a wallplate with an ethernet jack, then you should invest in a dual band wirelss router. you will have two SSIDs (one for 5GHz. dedicated to DTV, the other at 2.5GHz for everything else). this tecnique not only separates the wireless signals (DTV versus the rest), but 5GHz wireless A is a faster throughput technology, if the signal is strong.

    P.S. if the boss is open to seeing a finished wall plate with an ethernet jack, then myself and others here can help re: stringing wires through finished walls without hurting them :). well we won't help string the wire, just advise on how to do it, lol.
     
  16. zmancartfan

    zmancartfan AllStar

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    Mar 23, 2012
    I do have a dual band router. With the placement of the CCK in my instance, the 2.4 band was better. I know placing it nowhere near metal or electrical objects is preferable, but in my case it's located right next to the SWM ports which just happen to be right next to one of our main electrical panels.... Even though it's only about 15 feet away from the router as the crow flies, that fifteen feet is interrupted by two walls and my home office. 2.4 proved to be more solid.

    Speaking of that, though, is there a guide on how to reset the CCK? I just plugged it back in a few minutes ago, and it automatically connected using its previous settings. Even when I reset the network defaults on the HR44, it didn't give me the option to reprogram the CCK when I ran the network setup. It just found the CCK and went on its merry way.

    Next step when I get home will be to adjust the router IP settings.

    Thanks again!!


    Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk
     
  17. zmancartfan

    zmancartfan AllStar

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    Mar 23, 2012
    Thanks again for all of the help.

    I reattached the CCK, reran the network setup on all boxes, increased the max number of connected devices on the router, increased the IP lease to max, and set static IP addresses for everything related to DirecTV. I was then able to get the iPad app to recognize all boxes as being online by putting in their IP addresses. All was good.

    Until today.

    Now none of the H24s see either of the DVRs. The DVRs see each other's playlists, and the iPad can see both playlists. But all of the H24s see nothing. They show as being networked, and they show as being online. But no dice on seeing the DVRs.

    I even red buttoned everything. Still nothing. I reran network setup on everything. Nothing.

    This one has me stumped.

    I'm wondering if it might have anything to do with how I put the CCK back into the loop? The installer took me from a SWM 8 to a SWM 16. He put the actual SWM unit outside, and I have two coax wires running into the house; one each into a 4 port splitter.

    Since the CCK shouldn't count as a tuner (I'm using 10 of the 16), it shouldn't matter that I plugged the CCK into one of the output jacks of one of the splitters, right? That is how it should be connected, right?

    The previous installer two years ago set up the CCK, and the new installer took it out. I guess I never really paid that much attention to how it was connected before, but I thought it was into a previous splitter-looking thing into the same spot. I just assumed that's where it should go again.

    Oh, one other thing I noticed is that the router isn't showing the HR44 as a connected device even though the HR44 clearly has an assigned IP address. Not sure if that's related or not?

    Thanks again. I really appreciate the advice.


    Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk
     
  18. DB Stalker

    DB Stalker New Member

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    Tooele, UT
    I know that it can be extremely difficult sometimes to turn off the internal WiFi adaptor on the hr44s. Even after resetting to network defaults it will sometimes reconnect. So its possible that you've got two DECA connections going right now. That's a no no.

    #)
     
  19. zmancartfan

    zmancartfan AllStar

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    Mar 23, 2012
    The HR44 shows as having no wireless connectivity in the diagnostic screen. Funny thing is, today I woke up to find that the H24s now see both playlists, but the iPad app only sees the HR44.

    Why does it always seem to change overnight? And why does it seem that the iPad and H24s can't seem to work at the same time?
     
  20. DB Stalker

    DB Stalker New Member

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    Tooele, UT
    Go to your hr44 and reset network defaults. The. Unplug all of your components including DECA and power inserter. Then plug in PI, then DECA, then hr44 and other components. This should ensure that the internal WiFi on the 44 is off and you don't have any dual deca issues.

    #)
     

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