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Its not your body anymore ..

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Redster, Apr 6, 2004.

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  1. Roger

    Roger Banned User

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    Aug 7, 2002
    Stosh:

    "I dont want you, TNGTony, the Pope, or anyone else to impose their moral judgements on me. This is between me and my God. Why is that so damned hard for people to understand and accept?"

    I agree. If he wants to meet his Maker sooner rather than later then go for it. God's the judge and the only judge. Mind your own business, Pope. However, I can understand the Pope for wanting to do good.

    I stay away from all organized religions because IMO they're filled with the traditions of men and other apostasies.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    The word for falling away is apostasia
    ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
    Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

    I'd advise to read your Bible for yourself and forget about organized religion for your own good. Just remember to keep a Bible handy and remember that Anti-christ comes before Christ and you should be OK.

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
    Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
     
  2. toenail

    toenail Hall Of Fame

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    I gotta agree with Bogy on this one. It's between me and God. And I don't think that the Pope's position is correct. There are things worse than death. If someone is terminally ill and suffering, or a "vegetable", I see no moral wrong in their wanting to end the situation. I question the compassion of someone who would "force" a person to live through that kind of suffering against their will.
     
  3. Geronimo

    Geronimo Native American Potentate DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Regardless of the morality involved the definition of eithanasia includes what we are discussing. I disagree with the pope but just look at the definition provided above.
     
  4. Danny R

    Danny R Goblin the Pug DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Euthanasia = someone else making a decision about my life.

    What we are discussing here is my right to make those decisions.


    Problem is, if you are ever in a situation where a living will has to take effect, someone else does have to decide if they are going to follow your instructions or not.
     
  5. Stosh

    Stosh Godfather

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    Dec 16, 2003
    Correct. The possible situations are not as black and white as some people here would like them to be.

    The "someone else" in these cases would be the medical professionals involved. They are legally bound to abide by the living wills. Of course, the moralizers can always come in and muddy the situation by challenging the living wills. This is the opposite of euthanasia, but just as morally reprehensible, in that some outsider is again making decisions that go against the wishes of the individual.
     
  6. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    Suicide is illegal in most states.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  7. Stosh

    Stosh Godfather

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    Dec 16, 2003
    True, but again off-topic. Living wills are legal everywhere.
     
  8. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    IMNSHO it's contradictory. A living will is some one's wish to suicide by definition. It spells out the conditions under which one wants to die.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  9. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

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    Only if you see this life as all there is. Many people see it as a release and a chance to move on to the next stage of life. The very strong prohibition against suicide in Christianity was developed because to many Christians were choosing suicide as a means to get to heaven early. I often envy my father in at least the early years of his ministry. He didn't have to deal with the issues that pastors have to deal with today. People got sick and died, and there wasn't that much that doctors could do about it. Today medical science can do wonderful things, but sometimes it also keeps people "alive" in situations worse than death, when there would not even have been a debate about what to do 20 or 30 years ago. A living will allows people to make a choice about the level of heroic measures they want made if they become an issue. Life at any cost makes sense to me if you believe this life is all there is. It doesn't make sense to me if you believe there is much more to come.
     
  10. Stosh

    Stosh Godfather

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    Dec 16, 2003
    By your narrow-minded definition, you mean. That doesn't make it so.

    You can also specify in a living will that you want to be kept alive under any conditions, if you wish. If you think being in a vegetative state where you are brain dead but machines can pump air into your lungs, circulate your blood, take over kidney function, and feed you is what you would want, fine, specify that in your living will. If you don't have a living will stating that, other people, who in your righteousness you seem to think should be able to make such decisions for you, may decide to let you die.

    If you somehow feel you are qualified or entitled to make such decisions for me, well, I'm just glad you don't have that power.
     
  11. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

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    I mentioned earlier about a 100+ year old man, who passed away. A relative was in attendance and waited a good 15 minutes to call anyone to make sure no heroic measures could be taken. I'm not giving any more information because I don't want John Ashcroft tracking the relative down. If the paramedics had been called immediately he probably could have been "revived." Instead, he was allowed to die naturally, in his own bed, with a loved one in attendance. Nothing was withheld except for heroic measures. Was it suicide? Euthanasia? I don't think so.
     
  12. Danny R

    Danny R Goblin the Pug DBSTalk Gold Club

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    You can also specify in a living will that you want to be kept alive under any conditions, if you wish.

    My living will states that I should be kept alive as long as possible until such technology is available to heal my body fully, or to read the memories from my brain and transfer them into an AI computer providing me renewed sentience. ;)

    My wife knows that she is to divorce me if ever I enter into such a state so that she is not held fiscally responsible for maintaining my care.
     
  13. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

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    My wife knows she is to pull the plug and sell my organs for whatever the market will bear. :D
     
  14. Stosh

    Stosh Godfather

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    Dec 16, 2003
    Have you looked into cryogenics? Maybe your wife could keep you in the freezer, just to be near her. ;)
     
  15. toenail

    toenail Hall Of Fame

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    Off topic, but I have to compliment you on your Ray Bradbury reference. My favorite author. :)
     
  16. Stosh

    Stosh Godfather

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    Dec 16, 2003
    Changed my signature:
     
  17. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    Look...everyone is MISSING THE POINT....

    We are talking about allowing some one to starve themselves and die of thirst and how the Pope believes this is wrong. NOTHING ELSE. The entire discussion dealing with ANYTHING other than that is not pertinent to the point I originally made.

    Denying some one food and water. NOTHING ELSE.

    Refusing to give some one FOOD or WATER. Nothing else.

    Allowing some one to starve in front of you if they don't die of thirst first.

    The most basic elements necessary to life...food and water. NOTHING else.


    If you under ANY circumstances deny yourself food or water in order to do yourself in, you are saying "I want to die". If you commit an act or allow some one to commit an act you KNOW will cause your death, committing suicide.

    www.dictionary.com
    su·i·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-sd)
    n.
    The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.


    It is not a "narrow-minded definition". Euthanasia is a euphemism for socially acceptable suicide. "Dying with dignity". A disgraced businessman kills himself before being arrested or financial ruin is "dying with dignity" in his mind.

    An able bodied terminally ill man with 5 years to live kills himself by starving and dying of thirst is undoubtedly committing suicide.

    Some one who is about to die a horrible death kills himself first, STILL suicide.

    Some one who cuts their life short by denying themselves food or water...suicide!

    Again, back to the original point: Suicide is against the teaching of MOST churches on the planet. When it is permissible by the church, it is called something else (Martyr, sacrifice, etc) but it is still suicide! So what the Pope is saying is it is AGAINST the Catholic Church teachings to allow anyone to commit suicide which in this case some people choose to call euthanasia!

    Where is the surprise and dismay by this proclamation? There is nothing surprising or new about this.

    Again, in case no one got this, we are not talking about forcing extraordinary medical care. We are not talking about ANY medical care here. We are talking about FOOD and WATER.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  18. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    No Bogy. That is a beautiful way to die. This was not my point and never has been. I'm sure that up to the time he died though, no one denied his wish for water or food. I'm sure some one at some point said, "you have to have a little something to eat/drink." That is what I'm talking about.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  19. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

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    Most of us here are not talking about someone who is still relatively active refusing food and water, or refusing to give such a person food and water. We are talking about a person in a vegetative state, who receives all nourishment and hydration by way of tubes. In these cases the person doesn't even know they are hungry and thirsty. In most cases the higher level brain functions is gone. Personally, in my case my family knows I do not want to remain in such a state. Part of my reason is that medical resources in this world are finite. Just because I have insurance which might pay for the care does not mean this is a good use of those resources. Jesus said that there is no greater love than to lay down your life for another. If my brain is no longer functioning, if all I am doing is using up resources which could better go to someone who actually has a future in this life, if my organs can be harvested so that the lives of others can be improved, that's my choice.
     
  20. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Banned User

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    I always liked Poe's "All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream."
     
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