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Discussion in 'Standard Definition Receiver Support Forum' started by Fastman, Sep 24, 2004.
Don't you mean E*?
When evaluating dvr's, things like price, dvr fees, featuresets, ease of use, speed, reliability, user interface, goofy sounds or lack thereof, fisher price looking remotes, UHF compatibility etc... all vary widely from person to person in terms of prioritizing whats most important at the end of the day and whats completely unnecessary/irrelevant. Whats better for you isn't necessarily better for me or anyone else on here. "TV Tommy" who wants to record every single god forsaken episode of Star Trek, Buffy, Angel, Alias, Friends, Sex In The City, Sopranos, South Park, etc... will likely value name-based-recording far more then the person who isn't obsessive compulsive about ever missing a single second of a single episode of a single show. Some folks look at TV as life or death. Others enjoy it for what it is and don't take it quite so seriously. I can see why power users as well as people with large families would think Tivo is the end all be-all, but its completely overkill for the casual subscriber who records 3 or 4 shows a day maximum and has no desires for ever ripping video to dvd or networking it to other tv's in his or her home. I've been quiet in this thread so far, but the overgeneralizations like the one above imo tend to get people worked up all the time here. Think of it this way. The guy living in Phoenix, AZ where the weather is beautiful year round very likely doesn't have anywhere near the same need or desire for Four-Wheel Drive or All Wheel Drive on his car that someone living in Buffalo, NY likely will where snowfall and inclement weather can be horrendously compounded by the lake effects for a good part of the year. Different options for everyone out there. There is no one clear superior product thats perfect for the masses at large. Different needs and different options for everyone. I have no personal interest in NBR myself, but I'm glad its coming for all the subscribers who do value it nonetheless.
I think if you ever look for a comparision, you do try to compare everything. Not just the features you like or don't like. I'm sure a generalization might raise some heated discussions because some feel strongly one way or the other. But, if you do compare everything, then you can make generalized statements about the entire product. Show me a review that doesn't compare them in general. They will always make a recommendation for the best product and tell you why so that you can best judge if it's the right product for you.
In fact, your argument really consists of many analogies and generalizations. My generalized statement is based on facts. Features that do exist in the Tivo as compared to the Dish receivers. Functions that are implemented in the 10-250 compared to functions that don't work in the 921. Other receivers surely will vary depending on your needs. However, if your on the bleeding edge, then yes, some of us... I think most of us on here want the most a DVR has to offer.
Just because some features aren't important to you, doesn't mean you can't suggest one is a more superior product or the other is more inferior. If you have no use for a particular feature, then yes, it would have no value to you. I can recommend the 10-250 over the 921 and I can give many reasons why.
To get back to the subject as it pertains to NBR... There's just no comparision. Tivo is at least 3 levels above Dish on this type of feature. I think I've been very detailed about the feature differences and why I feel Tivo is ahead of the game. Again, the jury is still out because Dish has yet to implement any form of NBR or any type of automatic scheduling of recordings.
As someone who's moving to HD-TIVO soon, and away from Dish, I found this very informative.
Umm...recording 3 or 4 shows per day IS a lot of TV.
We obviously have different opinions of what a DVR is and what a minimal set of features have. I started to reply to your comments but realized this is going right back down that slippery slop. You mentioned that you were amazed how people any person that has used a TIVO/REPLY can call a Dish DVR a DVR. Well I am amazed how people can get attached to a technology to the bridge of it becoming a holy cruisade. Been there done that with OS/2 I have released that it is not always about being the best and have the best feature set. I will just leave it as we disagree here, and I have a 721 and a 508.
Now.. back on to the topic....
Minimal set of functionality I see the Dish DVRs adding with NBR would be.
1) Ability to adjust to changes in the EPG without user intervention.
2) Ability put some key words in and have the DVR find programs to record from it.
3) Ability to prioritize Events.
4) Ability to create a Named Event based on a selected event in the EPG. This would also allow you to set a flag to record shows similar to the one selected. Fuzzy filter perhaps?
I am sure there are some more.. but those are the minimum features based on Moviegoerman's excellent post on this technology and what has been in my mind.
If you happen to have a 721 collecting dust, I would be more than happy to dust it off.
No matter how great Tivo, Replay and NBR is, it is only as good as the guide. Dish NBR when it comes out will be subject to the same rule. For example, none of the NBR DVRs on the market will ever catch the full showing of 60 minutes or Cold Case on Sun evenings during NFL season. Never. NBR is a very nice feature and toolset, it is not foolproof as some Tivo'istas would have you believe.
You and me both, bro. Kinda nutty.
I provided you with real life examples illustrating that there is no one perfect option for everyone and you still can't accept that. You know damn well that whats critically important in a DVR to a single person who watches say 14-21 hours of TV a week is likely going to be very different criteria from a family of 8 who watches TV all day/night long in deciding whats most important in a DVR. Your statement is based strictly on personal opinion and nothing more. Facts and features to you maybe, but totally irrelevant and meaningless to the subscribers who could care less whether it does anything more then just record their shows when its supposed to in their entirety without issues as well as pause live TV. Bottom line, the primary purpose of a DVR is to record shows and the Dish DVR's do this extremely well as currently configured. Its a huge feature to me that my 721 does this perfectly well with no additional montly service fee without providing a bunch of bloated extras I'd never care to use myself. In the end that single feature is most paramount and makes it the superior DVR to me. Not the receiver that has thumbs up and thumbs down buttons so I can tell it I liked particular movies or shows so it can endlessly record a bunch of nonsense I'm going to delete seconds later in the futile hopes that its smart enough to match up precisely what I like and don't like based on small pieces of information here and there. Not the receiver with a Mr. Peanut shaped remote that makes Finding Nemo bubble popping noises everytime I push buttons strictly to entertain the kids.
You yourself are generalizing further in stating "most of us on here want..."
That would be the same thing as me implying that Tivos appeal primarily to the anal retentive OCD personality types while the Dish DVR's appeal more to people who are a lot more relaxed in their approach to watching TV.
Do us a kind favor and try to avoid speaking for everyone else as though you are the definitive source on whats superior and what isn't as someone who can telepathically read into everyone elses minds if you would. Its this exact elitist, holier-then-thou, Mac vs. Windows prevailing know-it-all attitude that comes up everytime tivo vs. dish dvr discussions are posted which angers so many folks and spins these threads towards flame wars time in and time out.
You can suggest it all you want, but please don't force this opinionated contention down others throats as though everyone else is wrong in not subscribing to a Tivo cures cancer and all world ills, prevents global terrorism, saves baby seals from being clubbed, and helps restore the protective ozone layer collective mentality. You love it and it works perfectly for you. Great. Glad to hear it, really. Lets leave it at that and keep our eyes open to the notions that its fine for some and not so fine for others. Superior is all relative. Others may argue superior is the one that gives you precisely what you want at a significantly lower monthly cost without a bunch of bloated unnecessary "features and extras" that aren't really desirable features and extras. There is a lot to be said for streamlined simple elegance. Ask Honda and Toyota about that sometime and take note of how many times the Accord makes the Ten Best List for X years in a row.
Its all relative Gary. Tell that to Bob Haller's wife who used to max out the 721 hard drive with cooking show after cooking show on a daily basis. To her, 3 or 4 shows per day is just getting warmed up.
Well said and its worth repeating a few times everytime this crazy debate comes up.
This is true Randy, What is really needed is a way for the content stream to tell the DVR when it is down with the show. Kinda of a "I am Done" event so that DVRs can be more responsive to a changing environment. This would be similar to indicating when a commercial segement is coming.
My guess is that this will never happen, because the content providers are not big fans of DVRs. This however would fix this issue and allow DVRs to be more dynamic in terms of end recording times.
I've been skimming the debate over Dish DVR vs Tivo (don't have time to read each extended argument). From what I've read, I have to side with WeeJavaDue -- not just because we both have Duke as our avatars
To say that a Dish DVR is just glorified VCR is like saying a CD player is just a glorified phonograph.
VCR stands for Video Cassette Recorder which records analog signals on removable tapes.
DVR stands for Digital Video Recorder which records digital signals on a hard drive. Way big difference here.
Just because Tivo DVRs have more features does not make it a "Real DVR". It just means Tivo has more features, period.
Now excuse me while I shut down my PC. It has MS Office and Age Of Kings installed . . . does yours? If not it must not be a "REAL PC"
And we float away again...
I have no problem accepting that you happy with your current receiver and environment. I've never said otherwise. If people like what they have, then there isn't anything to discuss. Clap your hands if you know it... :joy:
You might be confusing my statement and taking it out of context again. It was about most of us on this forum wanting to have the best technology. It has nothing to do with Tivo. If we didn't care about the this type of technology, then we wouldn't be here talking about it.
:bowdown: LOL!!! You must have me confused again... I offer my opinion like everyone else. I probably express my opinions more assertively than others and that puts people on the defensive because they are so strongly rooted in theirs. Again, My arguments/debates/opinions are all to discuss the topics of DVRs and the features that exist. My opinions do have a level of experience that I offer because I do use both providers and have both units. This is where I feel I offer more than just someone on one provider (like yourself). Others do want to know more and you're not able to provide that information.
I'm here to help others not make the same mistakes I have by getting a 921 that doesn't work. I know that I have helped many make reasoned comparisions about both boxes. So, I'll be here for many months to years until I get a working 921. It might be easier for you to click the big "X" on the upper right corner of the screen if you feel that someone is forcing you to do something you don't want to.
!rolling Man... I'm trying to take you serious, but I just don't see it like you do. It's never been a Tivo issue for me. It is which box does the most and does what is sold while still being delivered on time (no vapors). The 10-250 just happens to be that box. You can always push that big "X" on the upper right corner if you want to ignore my posts.
I guess you think a Toyota is better than a Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Rolles, etc. too.... Well, since you want a price comparision.... The 10-250 and the 921 are the same price. i.e. $1000. I'm not comparing low end Dish receivers to high end DirecTV receivers. My comparisions are on the flagship products for both providers. If you aren't playing in the same pond, then don't expect the water to taste the same...
Anyone ready to go back to the topic at hand, NBR, please be my guest...
The VCR had the ability to fast forward and skip past commercials since the 70's, but it hasn't been a big issue because it wasn't as easy to do until recently. We finally got past the flashing "12:00" and tape... LOL!
They do it for PPV so it's not a technology issue. It could be done if you had a dynamic guide via the Web that is maintained in real-time and ignored the content providers. It could also be done if the information was part of the mpeg stream for OTA broadcasts. i.e. beginning of program, commercial, and end of program. Like you say, that is very doubtful. I would think they would object more to having commercial tags as compared to just having a beginning and end tag for each program.
Marketers are trying to find new ways to get people to notice their products and services with invention of DVRs. Some are advertising inside of the program being broadcasted. That forces you to see the advertisement because it's part of the show. I've heard these types of advertisements on the radio too during talk shows. It is similar to how commercials used to be back in the 50's... The actors would stop and advertise a product in the middle of the show.
It becomes a problem if people stop advertising. Less programs are produced if there are less monies from advertisers. If they think no one is watching, then why would they pay to advertise?
There has also been talk of DVRs being regulated or illegal because of copyright violations. I'll be building my own once that happens, but I think that will be very difficult to stop DVRs since they have progressed so far.
moviegoerman, Thanks for the information. This kind of sounds exciting. I'm looking forward to E* giving us this feature. I have a feeling though, that it will be pretty basic, if you know what I mean.
Actually you wandered into a Dish forum with post after post pounding your chest Tarzan style over how wonderful the HDTivo is wondering aloud how anyone person with a sane mind could ever rationally choose Dish Network with a 721, 508, or 921 over Tivo. Imagine that! Your mistaken assumption that I have no experience with both providers sheds even more light on things as I used to sell DirecTV and Tivo's everyday while maintaining service with Dish Network. Not worth the added monthly costs to me when you can get the best of everything along with two tuners for no extra charges with the 721 imo. Add up your Tivo fees over the course of 3 or 4 years time and think of how many other more pressing things in life you could have purchased with the same money. No brainer for a lot of folks who like what they get now just fine. Far more bang for the buck value-wise which often is the king of all ultimate decision makers when push comes to shove.
A modern day Robin Hood looking to spread the goodwill everywhere while encouraging even more of an open free-for-all against Dish's competing products to folks desperately in need of your help. Who knew right? How fortunate for us your words are wisdom are here. [/sarcasm]. Maybe we can have a Tivo circle-jerk every coupla days over here and you can lead the parade beating the drums of "superiority" on a regular basis. God knows thats what we need more of here. More Dish bashing for everyone - woohoo!!!!
No, you again mistakenly missed the point. Point wasn't about which car manufacturer was best at all. Point was you can get an extremely reliable DVR with Dish Network that covers the majority of the bases when it comes to timeshifting programming to hard disk which is again what most people want at the end of the night. You know - to watch what they recorded when they want to on their own schedule. May not look the best- hell it may even resemble a refridgerator on wheels in the style department if you compare a Dish DVR with an older Camry, but it gets the job done and keeps a lot of satisfied owners very happy. I've never been big on ignoring people in forums. Everyone has a voice afterall.
Hum... I disagree again... You need to go back and read the posts... I have a 721 and a 921 today. I was happy using my 508 before I got my 721. I've expressed only good things about my 721. I've only joined this forum when I got a 921 that doesn't have OTA guide support, missed recordings, failing to add OTA channels to favorites, and just plain buggy. My comparision has always been that a 10-250 is much better than the 921. It just happens to be a Tivo!
Again... I said I "guess" you don't have any experience because you don't own a 921 or a 10-250. You keep referring to different receivers. You seem to think once you've seen a Tivo, then they are all the same. Have you used either HD receiver? Price seems to be your main argument. If price is an issue then you'll never be on the bleeding edge. The 921 has a DVR charge when I signed up for it too. Only the 721 is grandfathered without a charge. If you want to play with HD, then you only have one option on Dish (921) and only one option on DirecTV (10-250).
I wonder which drum you're beating here... You don't seem to want to talk about any issues that relate to this thread at all. I don't have a problem beating on a drum about a product that is still not functioning as SOLD. By the way, I just purchased a much larger and louder drum...
Actually, the 921 doesn't do the job. It doesn't have the OTA guide. I could go down the list of things that have failed and don't work, but you've probably already read about it since you've seen some of my posts.
WOW! Something we can agree on. But, is there something you have to add to the thread topic? Is there anything about NBR that you'd like to add or is your only goal to try to get me to stop sharing my viewpoint?
What does the 10-250 have that the 921 doesn't? Two, that's 2, OTA tuners. The 10-250 can accommodate more disk space! I don't have one, I want one, but I put all my eggs into one basket, E*. Hmmm, I need to get more eggs so I can get the 10-250 Dollar for dollar what is best?