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New Law for Israeli-Palestinian Couples

Discussion in 'The OT' started by James_F, Jul 31, 2003.

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  1. James_F

    James_F Damn you woman! DBSTalk Gold Club

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    http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters07-31-080104.asp?reg=MIDEAST

    Ah yes, don't want to dirty the population of Israel with Palestinian blood. :rolleyes:
     
  2. John Corn

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    In fact, Israel does not recognise any marraige which is outside of Jewish Law, be they Palestinian or anyone else. Most non-Orthodox Jews have to get married in Cyprus.

    And anyway, a nation can grant citizenship to anyone they choose. Before we start with the ignorant Nazi comparisons, we should check out the long standing naturalization requirements of most nations in the world.

    You also didn't mention (surprise!) the fact that the Ministery of the Interior can (and regularly does) offer citizenship to Arabs provided they are productive, safe members who support Israel as a Jewish state.
     
  3. gcutler

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    And the US isn't trying to pass any stupid laws lately???

    Israeli Right wing groups only want Converts to Judaism by Othodox Rabbais to be considered for Law Of Return, this is same old bullheaded pis*ing match in government between conservative and liberal groups, as in the US the conservative groups hold the upperhand in control of the government and flex their legislative muscle as expected.
     
  4. James_F

    James_F Damn you woman! DBSTalk Gold Club

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    You show you don't know a thing about life John. This is the same a Nazi germany. You don't have to murder 6 million people to be wrong.

    I wish DBSTalk had a bigger :rolleyes:
     
  5. James_F

    James_F Damn you woman! DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Tell me about it. The enlightenment of the late 20th century is being hurt by the reactionary in every country. Every morning I expect the police to grab me and pull me out in the desert to be reprogrammed to think like the idiots lead by the fool Dubbya.
     
  6. gcutler

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    Every Morning? That might be a little paranoid...

    But even seeing some of the posts on this forum, there are those who believe anything liberal is inherently evil. Instead of it possibly being that the liberal ways may have gone a few steps too far, perhaps just a few steps back would make a decent middleground for most people, but others want full speed back to the way it was 40+ years ago stomping out any enlightnment in their path.
     
  7. Bogy

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    Jer 7:5-7 "For if you truly amend your ways and your doings, if you truly execute justice one with another, (6) if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own hurt, (7) then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers for ever.


    Jer 22:3-5 Thus says the LORD: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place. (4) For if you will indeed obey this word, then there shall enter the gates of this house kings who sit on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their servants, and their people. (5) But if you will not heed these words, I swear by myself, says the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.

    Eze 47:21-23 "So you shall divide this land among you according to the tribes of Israel. (22) You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who reside among you and have begotten children among you. They shall be to you as native-born sons of Israel; with you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. (23) In whatever tribe the alien resides, there you shall assign him his inheritance, says the Lord GOD.

    I think it is time for the People of Israel to start listening to the Word of God, before they are once again turned into a desolation.
     
  8. gcutler

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    Bogy, Its Basic Psychology it is like a child that was severly abused, statistically the chances are that the child will grow up to abuse others. It might take a little more than just a little listening to biblical verses to change things. But how do you setup a group therapy session for an entire nation, especially when there is valid evidence others still want to harm them. And there will also need to be group therapy for the Palestinians, for they will pass on the abusive behavior to whomever is next???

    Maybe group therapy (Or Prozac) for the entire region??? Throw in The Balkans, and every other tribal battle that's roots go back further than one generation.
     
  9. Bogy

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    It is sad, because God's hope was that having been a captive people in another land, having traveled as aliens for all those years, (take your pick on which time), they would be more compassionate toward others in such a state. So much for that hope.
     
  10. RichW

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    Bogy, Its not only the Jews in that region, but various Christian factions show extreme prjudice toward each other as well, even worse than in this country.

    My Knights Templar Commandery has sponsored trips to the Holy Land for local pastors (We have had to suspend them for the last two years because of the violence there, however). The last minister we sponsored spoke at out Templars Easter service this year. He showed us some pictures and also commented on how the various Christian factions don't trust each other to protect some of the ancient sites in Jerusalem. Ironically, most of the cherished Christian sites employ Moslem (i.e. Palestinian) caretakers.
     
  11. gcutler

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    Bogy to be honest, that is a pretty vain hope. How many people that you know who have been so totally abused and then abuse someone else stop doing on that on their own accord (just look in your own congregation, not being forced but realize on their own???). If anything what you describe in your quote stacks the deck soooo much, it jumps out as unbelievable that the abuse you described would not result in abuser behavior for those people. I don't know anyone who is a super loving/caring person who was so totally abused (without years and years of therapy). You seem to be ignoring the most basic human nature. The abuse you described only resulted in the "Never Again" mentality on the side of the Israelis, and that mentality caused a similar mentality on the side of the Palestinians.

    And in such an area where soooo much blood has been spilled over the past by so many groups, there is even less chance of things being done right, for the sake of righteousness...The middle east is not a place where "The High Road" is a road often taken.

    Again looking at the Balkans, you see a microcosm. Only under a very charasmatic and strict leader such as Tito was tribal/ethnic violence stopped fror 40 years. The guy dies and within a very few years, 40 years of living side by side in peace went out the window and crimes from 40 years earlier as well as things that happened 600 years ago became a rallying call for genocide.

    We don't learn, we don't become better...
     
  12. gcutler

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    Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic and another group (I'm sorry I forget their name, something like Assyrian Orthodox???) all claim jurisdiction of many Jerusalem Christian holy sites and only major negotiations keep the groups from fighting. On Christmas Eve there needs to be closely timed sharing of the "Resources" and when one group is a second or two late in handing over the "Resource" the crowd gets heated, I have seen footage of riots caused by one group complaining the other group has gone over their allotted time. It is very sad footage to watch, realizing that these groups have sooooo much in common (much more than what separates them) and are celebrating their holiest days and a riot can break out any time there.


    The one benefit of the US that keeps the US from imploding on itself is the tie to the land for many is sooo loose. Where I grew up most people were renters, where I live now, I've been in the house for 5 years and I'm one of the longest residents in the sub-division. I don't expect my descendants to fight over any plot of land that has been in the family for 500 years, and no one is going go get into a heated battle over a plot of land that is in the family for 10 years and someone is willing to pay me fair value for...
     
  13. Bogy

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    As noted by gcutler the groups in charge are Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc. Not really "local" Christian groups, but ones who hammered out a compromise many years ago, going back to the time of the Crusades. The sad fact is that Palestinian Christians, who have had a long history of cooperation with their Muslim neighbors, are having an increasingly difficult time. Muslim Palestinians see American Christian Zionists who promote the destruction of Muslims/Palestinians, and they wonder, "Is this the way all Christians feel about us? Perhaps this is how my Christian neighbor truly feels as well." Rather than promoting peace between the various factions, we keep hammering in wedges.

    BTW, I guess to many guys I know are Shriners, because no one has ever sponsored me for one of those trips. :(
     
  14. Bogy

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    But...laws don't become laws in Israel without consent of the Orthodox Rabbis. They use scripture to "valididate" their claim to all the land spoken of in Ezekiel. (The passage immediately before what I quoted lists boundaries.) Yet they miss the parts here about the inclusion of the alien/foreigner. Yet they sure don't miss the parts about destroying homes. It's selective Bible study, and its what has gotten them into trouble in the past. Do I expect them to be able to override their human tendencies? Unfortunately, no. But I do expect them to continue to miss God's peace until they do. And so will we.
     
  15. gcutler

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    Bogy, So are you saying a group of Orthodox Rabbis are preventing world peace, and no one else in that region is in any way responsible for getting in the way of world peace??? And the rest of the world is missing world peace due to these Orthodox Rabbis and nothing else???

    Because thats they it reads to me...
     
  16. Bogy

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    No, if that's what I said it was because I just took two Tylox. :D

    At least it is an overstatement of what I was trying to say. I am trying to say that the law/rule in Israel is primarily based upon the Torah, no matter how secular the population as a whole is. Those who guide the understanding of the Torah, and how it should influence Jewish life today, take a very conservative/fundamentalist attitude toward the Torah/Scripture. They are aided and abetted in this effort by Israeli nationalists, American Christian Zionists, and others who are more than willing to use particular passages of scripture, sometimes taken out of context, to promote their dream of an Israeli/Western dominated Middle East free from Muslims.

    The Orthodox Rabbis are not the only group standing in the way of peace, but neither are they a driving force between the search for peace.
     
  17. gcutler

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    Bogy to be honest, again, that is the way of the world, you seem to selectively verbalizing your disgust for the Israelis when every other country in the middle east, and most of the world, INCLUDING THE US is guilty of similar things you are complaining about. Fine to condemm their treatment of the Palestinains, but you are criticizing The Israelis for much higher level religious extremism and selective bible study (I guess something The Vatican, Italy, Ireland, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia or Iran never do).

    Where are moderates truly in power (not the US!!!), in most countires the extremists on one side or the other are in power (Maybe Denmark and Sweden are one of the few innocent nations???) There might be other countries where the extremists are not in power but a Military Junta is preventing the extremists from taking power (not much better)

    Where is Selective Bible Study not the practice of the land??? What religious demomination dosen't practice selective bible study (or else there wouldn't be so many different denominations that believe so many different things). I have yet to hear a devout (pick your christian, jewish, Islamic denomination) not say that they are the only ones who are the true followers of the bible or Koran and every other religion or denomination follows selective bible-study...To make themselves feel better of selective bible study they just remove the disliked words from their version of their holy book.

    I think before you condem a country for being run by fundamentalists or for being guilty of selective bible study you look at your own house (or every other house on the block), because you are throwing rocks in a glass house.

    It comes across as Holier than Thou, and I've come to expect a more reasoned argument from you. If it is the fault of Tylox, perhaps you should refrain from making judgemental posts for a while!
     
  18. Bogy

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    gcutler, take a deep breath and calm down. Yes, I am criticizing Israel as being hypocrites, because they make the specific claim of their nation's very reason to be as being found in the Bible. I totally agree with what you say about their actions as being those of the world. The point I am trying and failing to make is that Israel has found themselves in exile a number of times in the past for ignoring the central message of God, while focusing on the minutia which they interpret to their advantage. Neither they nor any of the rest of us has learned from watching the results of such action. The U.S. certainly hasn't.

    You may have missed it, but one of the primary groups I keep blaming for their interpretation of scripture is American Christian Zionists. These are Christians in America who focus their faith on Revelations, who want to bring about the end of the world as quickly as possible, and feel the way to do this is to support Israel, get the Dome of the Rock torn down so the Temple can be rebuilt, and get a big old war going between Israel and their neighbors, so they can get to heaven as soon as possible. Of course they plan on missing the war and most of the rest of the fun because they interpret the Bible as saying that they will be flying around in the clouds with Jesus while the wicked suffer. This group has been influencing American Presidents since at least Reagan. So Christian Zionism, mixed with our guilt over the Holocaust, has resulted in a screwed up Middle East policy for decades.
     
  19. gcutler

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    Bogy, Ok I see your point about the other Christian movements. But...

    I continually see you post again and again about this higher standard of morality in the scriptures the Israelis fail to follow and should/will be punished for. That no country in recorded history has ever obtained that level of morality and some would say it is impossible to obtain that level of morality especially knowing human nature seems to not bother you one bit. And yet you seem to be personally afronted that the Israelis failed to obtain this impossible standard and claim that they are the source of the problem. But when pressed you will then admit that the Palestinians and others (The other arab states, the British BIG TIME, the US, the USSR, etc) have contributed to the conflict (the Cold War did alot to exaserbate the problems) How about next time you are blaming the Israelis for the problems in the middle east, throw at least a little "Shout Out" to the Palestinians or the surrounding Arab states who have also contributed to the problem as well.

    Partly this is an issue with me because I believe that no nation is inherently moral or immoral, their leadership and their actions on a hourly/daily/monthly/yearly basis should determine if they are labeled moral.

    Its like driving with two little kids in the back seat on a long trip, they are gonna fight, if you only yell at the older child to stop it because "You Expect More Out Of That One", what does that say to the younger child. My parents used to do that with me and my older brother, he always got yelled at on the car trips because "They expected more out of him". I knew that and did not ignore the chance to take advantage of that at every opportunity. And I consider comparing nations to little children to be very accurate, take a look at most international summits or the UN, not alot of maturity going on there...

    If you wonder why I am drilling you on this and not others, my answer is "I Expect More Out Of You" ;)
     
  20. Halfsek

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    James, I missed you.

    This is what really gets me. You and people like you pretend to be 'scared' of the facist direction our country is going. When in reality you feel no such fear. You just have to latch onto any claim, no matter how outrageous it is, to back up your ideological beliefs.

    Do you really believe that W's lackies are going to kidnap and reprogram you? Probably not.

    Do you really, honetly think that they want to take away all your rights? Doubtful.

    Because you know that if it really were that bad, then we'd vote him out in the next election. Or if not, then he'd be out in 2008 anyway- Constitution.

    But you just go ahead and air your "fears" as if you really worry about it every morning.
    If it were really that bad, move to Canada. Hell, if I believed it, I would.

    Man, for a "fool" Bush really seems to control a lot of people and seems to be removing our freedoms in very brilliant ways.
    Maybe he's not as dumb as you think he is.
     
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