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Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by Nick, Dec 9, 2003.
I don't see this with NBC on my 811 and Dish 34" tube monitor (16x9).
IMHO, I think most of the SD complaints boil down to MPEG-2 compression problems. I have an OTA Samsung DTV box and pixelation exists there as well, especially on SD broadcasts. PBS-HD (more bandwidth) only pixelates on extreme motion sequences, i.e. like a flock of birds on "Nature" the other night. MPEG-2 "on the fly" compression just hasn't arrived yet. On the 811, think I'm gonna let these other folks work the bugs out for me first hehehe.
Agreed- my SD looks like SH*T on both my 508 and my 811. OTA SD is more tolerable.
I just cant take any SD after "seeing the light" with HD
It's been 2 months now since I got my 811. I can't believe we haven't gotten a software update since then. What is going on?
Well, if you've really had it two months, then you actually DID get an update since you got it: one was released on 23-Dec-2003.
Now, if you've had it a bit LESS than two months, then, well, you just happened to get it just after a new update -- and we're hoping for another one soon.
I agree that we'd rather have them quicker -- but two months isn't necessarily a hugely unreasonable time to wait...
The 921 has had 2 updates since then. I think it is, especially considering the bugs.
It most certainly is. The product has way too many bugs out of the box, and it is taking too long to correct them. It is that simple. There is no acceptable excuse.
I do not understand why so many people become atached to Dish, or any company for that matter, and defend every poor business decision, mistake, and/or downright deception, as if they had a personal stake in the company, or it was a family member. Ridiculous.
Dish f-ed up, and continues to f-up. Period. I was a long time subscriber, but left for a year, recently coming back. Perhaps the long time subscribers who have been with them all this time don't notice the drop in quality (HW, CS, and PQ), as it may have been gradual. But I do. Lousy PQ, morons at CS, and embarrasingly buggy HW with missing ADVERTISED features.
I decided to go back with Dish because I remembered how much I enjoyed it before. Well....It ain't your father's Dish! (As the Olds commerials used to say.) I'll give 'em the benefit of the doubt and hope they get this 811 thing worked out. Otherwise, in a year I'll be giving DTV a call.
BTW, I'm writing this while staying in Japan, and this sort of quality and customer service issue simply wouldn't happen here. It embarrases me that it is so common in the US, and that Americans take this kind of crap for granted. (to the point of defending the company for crissakes!)
Exactly! They've had to dedicate more time to the 921 because, in my opinion, it has more serious bugs. With an 811, most people can tune OTA channels and such. With the 921, most couldn't. That seems more significant to me than dark SVideo, for example.
I guess it depends on the bugs. I would guess that Dish thinks that some of the 921 bugs were more important to fix quickly than the dark SVideo and the lack of a 48-hour guide.
Again, don't get me wrong -- I want the bugs fixed too -- but I guess I'm just not overly surprised that the 921 is getting some priority right now.
Such as? What are the "show-stoppers" here that the "average" 811 user would be stuck with? I've had an 811 for a while now -- and used it on a regular basis. It worked quite well for me. Yes, there are some problems -- but I just don't see them as more important than some of the other bugs that they are fixing on the 921. Yes, maybe they need more programmers and blah, blah, blah -- but people saying that they are upset because the 811 has only had one update in the last two months and the 921 has had two is just illogical to me. Of COURSE the 921 has had more work done -- it has more problems that need fixing NOW.
I do not understand why some people think that someone discussing logical product development issues means that they are "attached to Dish." I complain a GREAT DEAL about Dish. Read my posts if you need proof. I'm definitely a "squeaky wheel" when it comes to Dish issues. But, I also don't need to get my way all the time. I understand that development takes time and people -- and that, sometimes, certain projects get priority.
Ok -- well -- now you've gone off onto completely unrelated issues. I think that is another problem in this thread. People easily slip from complaining about a darkness problem on a lesser used output into PQ, lame CSRs, and other things. Yes, Dish has problems in those areas -- but that doesn't make 811 bugs any more important.
Again, please be specific when you go on about these. We've seen this happen in the past: people get generic, just keep saying "bugs" and then leave it at that. If you are having a specific problem with the 811 -- and a missing ADVERTISED feature, then tell us which one you mean in particular. I guess part of my stance is that I don't see "show-stopper" bugs that make the 811 unusable. Bugs, yes -- but not ones like the 921. So, again, it's a priority issue.
Again, you have no idea of my feelings toward Dish. There is a difference between defending a company and recognizing development cycles for multiple products. They have a brand-new, much-desired receiver with some problems. Yes, they made mistakes -- they have bugs -- both of them -- and the 921, I think, is getting some deserved precedence right now. I may not LIKE it -- but I can UNDERSTAND it. I'm sorry that you can't understand that without equating it (incorrectly) to company loyalty/defense.
Well, here are 4 bugs right off the top of my head:
1. Dark s-video (which everyone know about
2. Watching OTA then switching to the guide, you lose the satellite signal and it takes 5 plus minutes for it to come back. In the mean time you are locked out of both ota and satellite.
3. When you first power up the system for the day, the entire guide shows "no info available". If you don't go to a satellite channel and sit there for 5 minutes, the guide won't refresh.
4. Signal strength on ota digital channels is screwed up. In a lot of cases I can't even lock the station in when trying to add to the local list. On my 6000 all four of my local digital stations comes in without any problems at all, all showing 70-90 percent strength.
And there are more....
I do not own a 921. My 811 needs fixing NOW. More accurately, it should not have been shipped, if it needed fixing, nor should have the 921. Showstoppers? How about expecting a product to work correctly, and as advertised, OOB? Is that too much to expect? (In the US, it seems it is.)
In an earier, but recent, post in this thread I listed the problems I've experienced, which seem in line with what others have been posting. They seem quite common.
You prove my point. You have accepted shoddy products, and the excuses that companies give for releasing them. You should not have to be a "squeaky wheel". The product should work 100% OOB. There should be no argument to that point. Anyone who does argue that point has accepted the lower standards that so many corporations have been shovelling at us for too long. You see I DO need to get my way all the time. I am the CUSTOMER. That is the proper way to do business.
It is indicative of Dish's attitude to their customers. As such, it was relavent to the point being made about people's acceptance of the 811 bugs, and lower quality in general to the point of defending a company for providing such.
You still miss the point. The 921 bugs are irrelavent to the 811. Neither model should have been released as they were. They should both have worked as advertised OOB. Period.
I expect my 811 to work correctly, as advertised, not simply "usable", regardless of how another model works. And, 921 owners should expect theirs to work correctly, regardless of how well the 811 works.
Since you are apparently unaware of the multitude of bugs and missing features reported by so many here, which seems odd BTW, I'll reiterate:
-48 Hour EPG not functioning. 3 or 4 hours currently.
-Video window in EPG not functioning correctly.
-VCR timer going to blank image when starting recording.
-No Dish Interactive.
-Dish Locals not remapping to correct local channel numbers.
-"Acquiring Satellite" error when switching between OTA and Sat channels.
-Terrible analog OTA reception
-Fluctuating OTA digital signal strength.
-Dark, almost unwatchable image in SD outputs (n/a to me, but should work, regardless)
-Dark, but watchable image on HD outputs. (Should be better, but acceptable for now)
-Popping and dropouts on OTA audio.
-Aspect ratio not properly adjustable.
-Intermittant Closed Caption.
That's all I can remember off the top of my head since I'm in Japan right now, and haven't used my 811 in over a week. Still...specific enough for ya?
I understand why many criminals commit murder and other crimes. However, that doesn't make the crimes any less wrong. Of course, I'm not equating murder to buggy HW or bad CS. But, Dish has done wrong here. To accept it is to condone it.
By offering excuses for Dish's actions, you are in effect defending those actions. But, since i wasn't originally referring to you in particular, there was no need to get defensive about your own actions. (Of course, this post is referring to you in particular.)
Right -- as explained above, I don't consider this critical -- or, at least, I can see Dish not seeing it as critical. I think the vast majority of 811 owners would be using Component or DVI outputs. If they are using SVideo for normal TV watching from the 811, then they are throwing money away, IMO.
Yes, there are some exceptions -- recording and such -- but I think those are few enough that this doesn't warrant "critical" status. In other words, it can wait a few months to fix if there are higher priority things to take care of.
Does this happen to everyone? I'm not as familiar with the OTA bugs, unfortunately. So, I'm not sure how critical this one is either.
I don't have this problem with my 811. When I turn it on, I seem to usually have guide data available -- just not very far into the future, of course. Again, I don't see this as critical as some 921 OTA issues, for example.
I have heard of this, but haven't seen it myself. I was under the impression that most people had this working by adding them manually. Is the accurate?
That may be the case. Maybe none of us should have an 811 or 921. That still doesn't change any argument about what Dish CAN do about it and how quickly. I'm not saying the unit is FINE as it is -- I'm saying that you need to recognize that they have to prioritize when they fix things. There are only so many developers to go around.
No, I haven't accept the products as they are. I've simply recognized that 811 owners might have to wait for 921 issues. I know that makes you upset -- and that you "don't care" about 921 issues. But I'm just trying to tell you WHY things are the way they are -- and I don't find it completely unreasonable for a company to have to prioritize fixes.
The idea that all high-technology products might be released working 100% all of the time is just unreasonable. And that thought is NOT because I'm some stupid American that is "accepting" of such things. I work in software development. I do a GREAT job -- but that doesn't mean that everything I've ever shipped was 100% bug free. And it isn't because I expect my clients to accept a "lower standard" -- it is because clients know that some bugs are going to happen -- and be corrected.
But, again, that's another issue. If you want to argue that they shouldn't have RELEASED the 921 or 811 yet -- then ARGUE THAT. We're talking about a completely different issue -- and that is how bug corrections are handled once discovered.
Again, I haven't said ANYTHING before now about Dish's shipping of the 811 with bugs. I have only been trying to explain why, now it is out WITH those bugs, that it isn't illogical, in my opinion, for Dish to not have a bug fix release quite as often as you would like -- because I recognize the other issues going on.
If you want to argue that they shouldn't have shipped -- that's fine. If you want to argue that they need to hire more people -- that's fine too. But those are DIFFERENT arguments than what we have been discussing: which is how they are handling the bugs now that they've made mistakes to get to the point where they are now. All I am trying to explain is that, at this point, it does not seem that unreasonable to me that Dish has done two 921 updates in the past month and only one 811. That makes logical sense to me based on the bugs that I have seen so far.
No, they aren't. You are ignoring resources and other factors involved in fixing the 811 bugs if you call the 921 bugs irrelevant. They certainly ARE relavent when discussing the 811 bugs.
Completely different discussion than what we were originally referring to. Completely different.
I'm not unaware of most of the reported 811 bugs. What I said was that I could understand why many of them were not high priority items relative to other issues that Dish needs to be working on.
Exactly. I don't see this is critical.
I admit I don't remember this one. But, I've said before that I think Dish would put the "recording problems" as not too high on the bug list -- and I can see logic in that.
Again, not a show-stopper by any means.
If a very common occurrence, I agree that this one could be fairly critical. Hopefully fixed soon. I don't know how often people get this, as I said.
This seems to vary by user and situation. Some people seem to have fine OTA with their 811s. So, again, a problem that needs to be looked at -- but probably not classified that high.
I've already explained that this is likely not high because of the intended usage of the 811.
Again, many people with properly calibrated TVs don't get this. I don't get this. Maybe slightly darker than my 501, but certainly not a high priority issue.
I'm not sure how widespread this one is. I've seen many people say it is fine -- and others only with certain broadcasts. Because of reports like that, I can see Dish not seeing it as critical.
Both are problems -- but I can see Dish not seeing them as huge.
Don't get me wrong -- ALL of those issues need to be looked at. I'm just saying that waiting 2 months for an update doesn't seem that unreasonable for most of those issues. I can see Dish putting resources to other problems first is all.
Again, we see differently on this because you refuse to acknowledge that resources are limited and bugs in other receivers ARE relavent. Of COURSE they are part of the decision making process by Dish as to how soon they can fix 811 errors. If you won't see that, then we'll just have to agree to disagree -- because you'll never understand what I have been trying to explain to you.
I am "defending" their actions as far as timeline for 811 bug fixes go -- by explaining why I think it is unreasonable to get so worked up over taking two months for an 811 upgrade. That is all. I'm not defending Dish for shipping the units already. I am not "accepting" the unit as it is. I EXPECT it to be corrected. I just understand that EXPECTING it to be corrected within two months might not be reasonable. Therefore, getting so upset about it not happening within two months, to me, seems unreasonable.
I think you a correct. I to have to add my OTA channels manually but the receiver will sometimes drop them. PS. is anybody using a roof top antenna to pull in OTA's from about 60 miles or greater? if so what type?
I can repeat all of the errors. I can not add the ota digital channels manually because the signal strength never gets high enough to lock.
a. I am not upset.
b. I UNDERSTAND why they are the way they are. I am stating that it is WRONG for them to act that way.
c. It IS unreasonable to take so long to correct the problems.
Does anyone have an issue with the "show info" button? When scrolling to another channel while watching a program, pressing the "show info" button causes the translucent info screen to appear for a second, and then disappear. Pressing the info button again brings up the non-translucent program info screen. Anyone else experience this?
Gary, I'm busy atm, and I'll have a larger reply to this later, but I wanted you to know that you're certainly not alone. The 811 is a horribly done, relevant to comparable boxes, piece of HW. There is no excuse for releasing something with so many issues. There's even less excuse for not fixing them promptly. The only saving grace is, you could have bought a 921 and paid $1000 for the joy of beta testing E*s HW.
For whatever reason, there's an inordinate amount of E* homers on the DBS boards (let me say clearly that those in charge of the boards are *not* among them) and with the folks you can't win.
Anyhow, if you visit other boards, folks won't even consider E* atm for HD, due to the sad state of both the 811 and the 921. You're not alone - and guess what? You made pefect sense...
I am thank you with much. I am always try to making a perfect sense it does.
This may be of interest to those who are considering upgrading to an 811. For customers that frequent this helpful forum, I ask for your suggestions. For Dish Network employees that may read this thread, I ask that you take action on this issue.
As an existing customer, I was offered $149 for the upgrade to the 811 receiver. I specifically asked if the upgrade they were offering was contingent upon signing up for the HD package, and was told that I did not need to get the HD package.
I had the 811 installed a few weeks ago. I went through the problems with actually getting it installed that many on this forum have noted.
I received my first post-installation bill yesterday and discovered that I am being charged for the HD package. I immediately called customer support and they told me that I had signed up for an upgrade that must include one year's subscription to the HD package. Furthermore, I was told that there would be a significant fee if I cancel the service. I told the representative and her supervisor several times that when I signed up I was told that the HD package was not required. In addition I was never told about a cancellation fee. The supervisor insisted that I was obligated to the HD package or the cancellation fee. I questioned if it was Dish Network's policy to sign up customers for services without their permission. The supervisor would not answer that question, but simply restated that I am obligated to the HD package. The supervisor finally offered me two month's discount on the HD package.
I asked to speak to the supervisor's manager and was told that they are not allowed to do so. If I called in at another time I could speak to another supervisor, but would not be allowed to speak to the next level of management.
To add some icing to the cake: Since the above-noted call I have wondered why I can't tune the HD satellite channels. I now believe that my older antenna does not provide the capability. Hence I have been forced to sign up and pay for programming that I have no capability to view.
While the offer to comp 2 months of HD programming (which the supervisor ensured had no strings attached) is better than nothing, I believe what has occurred is clearly unethical and perhaps illegal.