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OH NO!!!! LNBS still bad.....

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Installation/MDU Discussion' started by Jodean, Feb 1, 2011.

  1. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Now this is very strange.
    DVRs work fine, but non DVR receivers are crapping out? :confused:
    Can you measure signal levels [with a meter] at the receiver/DVR locations?
     
  2. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    OK, since I like "strange", let's see what's going on here:
    The SWiMLNB output is controlled by an AGC for -30 dBm.
    The comm signal is a FSK at 2.3 MHz.
    Both the DVRs & receivers use the same SAT tuner chip, and the DVR needs to split the input signal to both chips, so each chip will be lower than the non DVR chip.

    Swapping the SWiMLNB and "curing the problem", would mean either the output level changed, or the sensitivity of the FSK signal improved.

    Now when changing the SWiMLNB doesn't "cure the problem", doesn't it point back to the receiver and/or the coax to it?

    If it was "truly" the SWiMLNB being the issue, shouldn't it be on all receiver/DVRs?

    Humm....
     
  3. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    Very Old,

    Would changes in temperature, cable length, tech skills and use of SC or SCC be enough variables to make this one hard to resolve?

    Joe
     
  4. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I think this would be hard for almost anyone.
    1) any troubleshooting would need to be done during the very cold temps.
    2) being that this isn't happening to all receiver on the system, there is another variable, or "squirrel" as we know them.

    "Shotgunning" hardware [shotgun maintenance] may not help, or send one down the wrong path, but at the same time, a "few rounds" well placed, might give some idea.
     
  5. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    And I thought of something else..........two somethings, actually.

    If you were the HSP manager and had the usual firehouse scene running every day........and were a few weeks out on installations and service calls.....Would you invest resources in a problem that would cure itself on a seasonal basis?

    This one would be nice to fix...it may turn out to be receivers or a bad patch of LNBs.

    OR the other thing. Electronics are fragile. Shipping them in low temps may be what is causing some of them to fail. Or techs throwing and dropping them into vans....stuff like that.

    The failures are a tiny % of a minor part of a small portion of subscribers who temporarily find themselves freezing their asses off.

    So they will take appropriate action I betya. They can just change the ad copy to fix the numbers....FREE installation in any weather!"

    Joe
     
  6. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    Dial back the attacks a notch or two and you may actually get some help.

    What is the exact model number on the LNB? Example SL3S4NR2-03. Not WNC, E/A, but the model # on the green lable. No current LNBs are anything but DirecTv branded. Now to decode the model #
    SL3 = Slimline 3
    S = SWiM
    4 = not sure
    N = No pigtails (wish they would put them back on)
    R2 = Revision #2
    03 = Mfg code

    New stuff fresh off the boat/plane.

    Not an MP4 market, but do plenty of mixed installs.

    Nope.

    Yep.


    Let me ask you this. Has anyone their bothered to fill out and send a FPR to your FOM? Or is just a bunch of kvetching in the shop? Has anyone bothered to send these "defective" LNBs to DirecTvs engineering to be looked at?
     
  7. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    Maybe, yes, absolutely, & yes.
     
  8. TwoPhases

    TwoPhases Legend

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    I don't know about everyone else here but if I'm "abrasive" in my approach, acting like I know-it-all in my line of questioning, I expect to be ignored big time. You guys know whom I speak of.
     
  9. Jodean

    Jodean Icon

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    they are all sent back to DSI, i have marked all the lnbs at what temp and what the problem its causing

    They are having the office fill out a sheet on every bad lnb, number of receivers, temp when faild, what else seems odd type of spec sheet.

    Geeze i hope to hell they are anylizing those ones we sent back otherwise we are filling all this crap out for nothing.....


    Ok, today we noticed ONO doesnt have many problems (they still have lnb issues) with the swim lnbs, but not as much as retailers are having......

    Apparently ONO is using refurb h24-100's on new installs, we are using h24-700's on all installs. We had some overheat issues on the 100's when they came out, it was 105F and some wouldnt work in campers or garages so they got sent back. We didnt have the 100's long and then suddenly got replaced by the 700's

    Man i havent troubleshot one in so long, we just claim lnb every time now after having 50 bad ones, so i cant recall if a bird dog shows a reading when the receiver doesnt. I do recall at one location my birdog showed a signal, and the receiver didnt though, the reciever showed swm signal and a couple transponders on sats, but almost all were zero.

    So now the question is why would some lnbs work with the receivers, and other are deemed incompatible with swm?? And why the heck woudl temp have anything to do with a receiver inside the house??
     
  10. Jodean

    Jodean Icon

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    so what about the colored insert on the swm head???
     
  11. Jodean

    Jodean Icon

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    Here are the a couple ive taken out that were bad.

    SL3S4NR2-01
    SL5S4NR2-01

    obviously same part number, one 3 one 5 both are brown insert

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Both of these works most of the time, at night when under 10F they would start losing signal or putting channles on the wrong channel number
     
  12. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    "Basically" you're dealing with transmitters and receivers, so you'll need to use a third device to slave in and determine if it's the transmitter or the receiver that's at fault.
    A receiver has a minimum detectable signal level, which will vary both by each receiver [due to the nature of chips] and by manufacturer.
    On the transmitter and in this case the SWiM, it's output being AGC controlled "should be" more consistent, but the AGC itself can be affected by very cold temps.
    Now since the comm FSK 2.3 MHz comes from the receiver, it too is the transmitter and the SWiM is the receiver, so everything above for the SAT signal is reversed for the comm signal.
    All of these parts are made with commercial grade chips, so when the temps get really low, they're getting close or out of their operating range.

    Two years ago when this first showed up, some were wrapping the LNBs with insulation to keep their internal heat in as a temp fix.
     
  13. leeliam

    leeliam Mentor

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    2) Yes

    5) Yes

    I hate to do this but I have to say you are exagerating things a bit. I work out of the warehouse in Des Moines, IA just like you. I also put in more receivers then about 90% of the techs there. I almost exclusively do SWM installs. While I've had a couple of LNBs show 771A on service calls I'm just not seeing it as badly as you claim. Sercive call last week had the PI on an RG59 line that was 100+ ft and I moved the PI to an RG6 line and the 771A disappeared. The only LNB I've seen that caused a problem for a customer was a SWM 5 that had a clear lens.

    I put in well over 15 SWM installs a week and haven't had an FSR on any of them for SFSS. I'm leaning towards technician error. I hate to say it but have you looked at your coax stripper? Service call I was on last week the Conductor was scored badly and causing problem. I replaced the connector and the 771 disappeared.

    I'm not saying there aren't some bad LNBs, just not to the level that some techs are claiming. It's just getting blamed for all kinds of technician related issues in our area.
     
  14. texasbrit

    texasbrit Well-Known Member

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  15. Jodean

    Jodean Icon

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    I wish everyone would read the whole post....but what receiver are you using? and again, im not the only tech with the problem, its every tech having problems.

    Are you using the brown or orange inserted lnb?

    Has it been below zero there?
     
  16. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    Stop with trying to narrow it down by the f-connector insert color. Multiple mfgs use these inserts. You need to refer to the LNBs by the model number for it to be of any value.
     
  17. Shades228

    Shades228 DaBears

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    50 whole calls? How many calls do you think that DIRECTV fields in a day? 50 on one issue wouldn't even be a blip on the radar. ALso customer's can claim anything they want on the phone. I could use all sorts of analogies but the bottom line is 99% of the customers DIRECTV has don't even know what an LNB is. Add in the small accumulation of snow in the last week and I think that you might have some issues.
     
  18. Jodean

    Jodean Icon

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    50 calls from all new installs from the same city??i really hope direct is smarter than you percieve them to be.....

    today i had a 700 search just after install, hooked up my birdog and yup the line did have signal. The 700 didnt acknowledge a signal till i reset it. It will more than likely drop off and the guy will call in.

    The store owner just got back from minneapolis from the direct road show, they are now admiting there is a problem but dont know what it is yet. They claim its not one problem and rather a combination of 3-5 things causing issues, like 700 model, lnb, mrv, and whatever else.

    So for now we are still installing stuff that doesnt work.
     
  19. leeliam

    leeliam Mentor

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    I still think you are exaggerating I work in the same market as you and close 3-4 jobs a day working 6 days a week and am not seeing SIN7s on my work much less the amount of service calls you claim are coming from Des Moines. I almost exclusively do SWM installs.

    I'm installing the same equipment as you and having nowhere near the widespread problem you are claiming exists.

    In another thread you claim to have 30 of your installs coming back to you with problems. That's over a full week of customers having issues. There isn't a tech in the Des Moines HSP warehouse with that many FSRs or SIN7s. You're exaggerating the problem and that doesn't help find or fix anything.
     
  20. bri775

    bri775 New Member

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    We install SWM lnbs over here. We started to have this problem last winter with lost signal during cold weather. I believe it has nothing to do with H24 or HR24 receivers as 1 year ago they did not exist and we had the same problem with H21-HR23 receivers. It only occured for us on lnbs made by WNC during temperatures of 5 degrees F to -15 degrees F. What I found interesting about your post is we have NEVER had this problem in an eagle aspen or green lable swm lnb. Most often the signal will not return until the temperature is warmer. Once its warmer some systems will return by themselves while others require a reset. We have not found a solution except to wait or replace the lnb (which is a pain!). DirecTV does not seem to recognize this as a serious problem unfortunately.
     

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