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Police: 13 dead; 58 injured in Colorado theater shooting

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Unknown, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    No, it wouldn't... Check the links I posted earlier regarding how our government is already monitoring people either directly by permission of the ISP or by purchasing data mining information collected by various organizations to study purchasing habits of people to look for potential terrorists.

    Take a look at the thread I just started... a different topic but it ties in to what you just said...

    I don't want to drag this thread off-topic, so I put it in its own thread... but suffice to say the NYPD has been running surveillance operations in other states, and someone accidentally stumbled on one. So... if we have free time and money for police from one city to leave the state and conduct operations in another state... I think we can find the people and funding to watch someone who suddenly changes his buying habits to purchase a lot of ammunition and such.
     
  2. runner861

    runner861 Icon

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    I just read the other thread. There are definitely surveillance operations being conducted. I have no doubt about that. However, surveilling one guy based on a data mining operation is bound to lead to a lot of dead ends and require a lot of manpower.

    As far as the data mining, I am not sure how effective that is. There is nothing like requiring a company to provide hard data as to sales. Banks are required to do that for certain types of transactions (such as depositing more than $10,000 in one day). In fact, our satellite companies are required to report the name and address of each customer purchasing distant networks. This allows the distant network customers to be tracked, and the local stations to contest the viewing of the distant station. No one complains that this violates the privacy or free speech of either the distant station or the customer. Yet we have no similar legislation with regard to guns or ammunition at the federal level.

    I think your ideas are good, although I think some solid legislation is necessary. It may be necessary to step on the toes of some special interests. The NRA and the ACLU have been the most active at lobbying against legislation in this area. I do not mean to be making a political statement, but I am taking a realistic look at the laws in this area. We as citizens need to make our voices known so maybe our politicians will respond. Remember, the NRA and the ACLU are both special interest organizations. They have their own best interests at heart, not necessarily the best interests of the country and public safety.
     
  3. trh

    trh This Space for Sale

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    Dr. Ted Kaczynski was considered pretty smart too. Harvard at 16, PhD from Univ of Michigan, and professor at UC Berkeley by age 25.

    but my comment didn't necessarily mean this shooter.
    I was thinking of the Virginia Tech gunman.
     
  4. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    This story just goes to show that even the tightest security is always infallible.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-18979032
     
  5. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The point I was meaning to make there was... there sure does seem to be money spent and effort taken to track and watch and investigate, as long as it is a Muslim. How many dead ends and wasted money/effort happens in that pursuit?

    I'm sure they catch some... but they also spend a lot of time on dead ends too... that's the nature of the beast. All I'm asking is that a white guy (or a black guy for that matter) who does something out of the ordinary piques the same interest in watching as a Muslim guy does. We have lots of home grown terrorists and crazy people... so if all our efforts are focused only on Muslims, we are going to miss a lot of potential problems.
     
  6. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    If they did that, they'd be tracking half the population of Idaho, Michigan, Montana and several other states with concentrations of militia groups.
     
  7. trh

    trh This Space for Sale

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    The FBI is tracking these groups. They refer to it as HVE -- Homegrown Violent Extremism and Domestic Terrorism.
     
  8. longrider

    longrider Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    Now for the latest, he planned it ahead of time and described it in a letter mailed to a psychiatrist which sat unopened in the mailroom for a week

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/2...-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/
     
  9. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

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    We don't need gun control or beefier security at movie theaters. We just need people to open their mail!
     
  10. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Isn't once enough? What is the quota of deaths before one should care?

    Security needs to be scaled to match the event.

    For example, there is a train station I visited in downtown Chicago. I parked on a side street and walked to the station, walking past a couple of guards (and asking one for directions). I wandered around the building and station at will then left ... but it was daylight an there was no large events happening that should have prevented such a visit. A few months later that same station was closed for several days ... one could not get within about a half mile of it. The secret service even closed the interstate that runs nearby. NATO held a conference in the building housing that station.

    On a normal day normal security keeping their eyes open and allowing normal behavior worked. On another day additional security was required.

    The theaters I visit have a normal level of security ... watching for people sneaking in and protecting their revenue. And when the situation calls for it (packed theaters for premiers) additional security is called in.

    Is it really that crazy to ask that the theater protect their revenue?


    Perhaps the theaters where you live are more lax ... perhaps the loss of revenue isn't worth hiring guards. Perhaps your home town theater is more like Aurora than mine ... but the theaters I go to would have caught someone sneaking out and (especially) back in. Perhaps that "mall cop" would have just been the first to die ... but it might have made a difference.
     
  11. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    Is it really that crazy to ask that the theater protect their revenue?

    Is it really that crazy to not let an 11 year old kid walk onto an international flight unchallenged? Even if it's just to protect your revenue by making sure only paying passengers board?
     
  12. trh

    trh This Space for Sale

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    I wonder what the psychiatrist would have done if he opened the letter before the incident? I know I'm being cynical, but I think they would have kept it quiet because of privacy laws.

    I suspect that as a result of all the future law suits against the theater, insurance companies are going to mandate more security at movie theaters before they write a policy for them.
     
  13. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Yeah ... at least he didn't kill anyone. :rolleyes:

    One mistake DOES NOT excuse the other.
     
  14. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    If there was a threat of harm against himself or others the laws allow intervention.
     
  15. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I know this is somewhat nebulous... but I think it is not only allowed, but in some cases might actually be legally required for a psychiatrist to contact someone that he/she believes to be in real danger from a patient.

    I have to think a journal with plans and diagrams of how he intended to massacre people would constitute a viable threat.

    The more we learn it seems not only were there red flags in his behavior and purchasing habits, but he outright tried to tell someone his plans. I'm not defending the guy here at all... but it is starting to look like the attacker here was arguably more pro-active than anyone else in trying to stop him. That's just odd.
     
  16. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

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    I think if he had read the mail at the very least the FBI would be all over you know who.
     
  17. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

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    I believe you are correct in cases where doctor/patient confidentiality falls in to play. I haven't heard however that this was actually a doctor of his so the whole doctor/patient thing wouldn't apply and the doctor could have given the police any information regardless of any such requirement.
     
  18. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    With the many streams of discussion, I'm going to summarize my viewpoints.

    I am saying continue to lock doors.
    I am saying apply cost effective security.
    I am saying don't think that securing theaters is the answer. It is only one of many, many places we gather.
    Thus cost effective doesn't just mean for a theater but for everything.
    Purchasing 4 guns and 6000 rounds of ammo is not a red flag. Not when the purchaser is working on a graduate degree, solid past, no other red flags, and otherwise a person in good standing. I can easily see someone getting hooked on a hobby and immersing quite deeply.
    Riot gear might have been a flag. But this guy probably could have circumnavigated that too.
    Two rent-a-cops would not be enough for all the showings at that theater. I know of theaters that would have 8 or 10 screens active out of 16. More if they could string the prints far enough.
    People leaving a theater is not a red flag. And unless you see the door lock being jammed, you probably would not even know it had been jammed.
    Unless security was wearing full riot gear they would have been dead person #13, 14, 15...

    This was one of the worst possible scenarios. Someone who meticulously planned, prepared well, smart, and otherwise not a sign to warn anyone. And somehow very motivated. He quite likely could have gotten this all on a plane instead of a theater. Or any of thousands of places where people gather. Do not delude yourself, normal security measures would not have worked with this guy. Mall level security wouldn't have slowed him down in the least.

    Sorry to be blunt. I don't mean to sound disheartened, I am not. I rejoice that this only happens once in a very, very long time.

    Peace,
    Tom
     
  19. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    My understanding of the general requirements of the patient/doctor relationship mirrors yours. Doctors are basically required to ascertain the viability of the threat and proactively take appropriate steps.

    And yes, this is very, very odd.
     
  20. trh

    trh This Space for Sale

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    It would be nice to think so, but as one psychiactrist said on TV, they could have also thought the guy was just fantasying. Which wouldn't be reported.

    The Washington Post had a sideshow of the top ten massacres in the US. In almost every case there were warning signs that family, friends, teachers, co-workers or doctors noticed, but failed to do anything about. The same psychiatrist said we need training in this country to better identify these red flags and what actions need to be taken.
     

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