1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Police: 13 dead; 58 injured in Colorado theater shooting

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Unknown, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,609
    380
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    Exactly.

    The system is supposed to work that way, but clearly it doesn't... at least not always.

    People act as if DNA is this new thing that is overturning convictions and that convictions were never overturned for other reasons before DNA testing was conceived.

    History is filled with wrongful convictions, some of which were overturned without DNA testing... now DNA testing is overturning some... and eventually we'll find some other thing that can be used to identify criminals.

    I see no rush to execute IF there are viable defense motions and new evidence to process. We shouldn't be in such a rush to kill people. It's no longer about justice if you are in a hurry to do it.
     
  2. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

    17,054
    311
    Jan 4, 2006
    Again, taxpayer money. Let's save some instead of flushing it all down the toilet.
     
  3. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

    16,322
    500
    May 30, 2007
    Cincinnati
  4. dennisj00

    dennisj00 Hall Of Fame

    9,688
    194
    Sep 27, 2007
    Lake Norman, NC
    We're arguing over old cases vs. dna exonerating current prisoners. . . that's not the case here.

    Unfortunately, he's going to get life from insanity and we'll be dealing ($$$) with this bastard for the next 50 years.

    Can you say Charles Manson?
     
  5. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

    16,322
    500
    May 30, 2007
    Cincinnati
    His case was different, his original sentence was death, but it was declared unconstitutional in California. When it was reinstated, it wasn't retroactive.
     
  6. dennisj00

    dennisj00 Hall Of Fame

    9,688
    194
    Sep 27, 2007
    Lake Norman, NC
    My point, we're still dealing ($$$) with the bastard. There's no DNA, wrongful conviction issue here.
     
  7. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

    17,054
    311
    Jan 4, 2006
    He also didn't directly kill anyone. We can't compare this jackbag to Manson in any way.
     
  8. Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

    15,345
    578
    Dec 2, 2010
    Winters,...
    Of course we can. The parallel is that both scumbags are alive, and are or will be living off us taxpayers.
     
  9. dennisj00

    dennisj00 Hall Of Fame

    9,688
    194
    Sep 27, 2007
    Lake Norman, NC
    You don't have to directly kill someone to be charged with murder. Also, we know both are deranged. And as LAX said, will live off the taxpayer for the rest of their lives - and cost us millions in appeals.
     
  10. djlong

    djlong Hall Of Fame

    4,343
    57
    Jul 8, 2002
    New Hampshire
    No, but you WILL find a prosecutor deliberately suppressing evidence so that he looks "tough on crime" - and it takes a LOT of appeals to overcome that.
     
  11. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    859
    0
    Mar 20, 2010
    Think about the discussion at this point. Sure, plenty of prosecutors will seek tough sentences to look tough on crime, or because they believe that is what justice dictates, but deliberately withhold evidence? Not likely at all. That means the prosecutor is a criminal, is willing to compromise his/her ethics, is willing to risk prosecution himself/herself, knowing that the evidence can come back and blow up in his/her face at any time, and is willing to let the crime go unpunished because the actual criminal is not prosecuted. And then, after being willing to do all this, the prosecutor will leave all the evidence in the case file, so anyone reviewing the file can find it at any time. Really, putting the media aside, very unlikely in the real world. Besides, prosecutors, except the top elected official at each office, are not politicians. They are not paid by how many cases they win or prosecute. They don't even make very much money. Being a police officer or a prosecutor are two of the most necessary jobs in society, but also two of the most thankless.

    But beyond that, in the Colorado case, does anybody doubt that this guy did this? No DNA is necessary, and there may be no DNA in the case. There is no misidentification in this case. The only defenses availabe to him realistically are mental defenses. We are basically talking insanity here. Will it be successful? Well, twelve of his fellow Colorado citizens will decide.
     
  12. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

    6,259
    133
    Jun 6, 2009
    Happens more often than you know.

    Verdict is not in question. Neither is the sentence really. Even if the jury finds for execution, it will be overturned at the Federal level due to the questions of competency.
     
  13. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    859
    0
    Mar 20, 2010
    I disagree vigorously with both of your statements. Where is the evidence--not speculation or innuendo or media hype--but evidence of either? Actually, for the second, it can be nothing but speculation since it is a future event which may or may not happen.
     
  14. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

    17,054
    311
    Jan 4, 2006
    Where did I say you did?
     
  15. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    859
    0
    Mar 20, 2010
    Hopefully none of us becomes a victim of a crime, although I am sure that some of us have had that unfortunate experience. Others, I can tell by the writings here, have not been a victim. But when a person becomes a victim of a crime, it is a "welcome to the real world" moment. These statements about "withholding evidence," or "planting evidence," mean a lot less when you actually see what is going on, rather than sitting at home and watching tv or reading a book. You might get a closer view of law enforcement both on the street and in court. It is not like CSI, or Hawaii Five-O, or Law and Order.

    The families in Colorado are going through that now. They will see things that they like, and things that disappoint them, and a system that has many barriers in it to ensure that an innocent person is not convicted, but not a lot of resources to help victims. They will be dealing with the court proceedings on this case for over a year, possibly many years, possibly forever. They will be dealing with police and prosecutors who are honest people, doing their best, but also having to deal with irate and egotistical judges, aggressive defense attorneys, and the media. It won't be easy for the families. Remember, the families are the only people who are really directly involved and feeling the effects of the case. The next closest are the police officers and prosecutors, but even though they are close, they are not "in" the case. More removed are the judges and defense attorneys. Even more removed are the media, whose interest is primarily ratings and hype, not justice or fairness. Most removed are people who want to sit at home and criticize, or say how they know what is really going on, or how things really should be done.
     
  16. Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

    15,345
    578
    Dec 2, 2010
    Winters,...
    Instead of attacking more statements of others, perhaps you could acknowledge that an earlier statement you made was flat out wrong.
     
  17. dennisj00

    dennisj00 Hall Of Fame

    9,688
    194
    Sep 27, 2007
    Lake Norman, NC
    You didn't say I did - - -your Post 667 above, "He also didn't directly kill anyone".
     
  18. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

    17,054
    311
    Jan 4, 2006
    Then why did you come at me like I said you have to directly kill someone to be charged with murder? I'm well aware of the fact that an accomplice can be charged. I'm also well aware of why he was charged and agree with it. You completely missed the point of my post apparently.
     
  19. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,609
    380
    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    We have to separate this specific event with general discussion of all possible events when talking about death penalty and appeals.

    When someone commits mass murder in a large room with lots of witnesses and is apprehended on the scene... it makes conviction of something fairly easy. Mental issues might affect what the actual judgment and punishment are... and while we don't want people to "get away with murder" by plea of insanity... What if you had a mentally impaired brother or sister, wouldn't you feel differently about that?

    Meanwhile... in the general broader application of death penalty... Lots of people get the death penalty without being apprehended at the scene red-handed... and that makes things murkier and widens the possibilities of defense.

    So... for very specific cases, I'm fine with some being restricted on appeals and having less opportunity when the initial evidence is so compelling. But I can't agree with strict limits on all appeals across the board, because every case will be different.
     
  20. Aug 1, 2012 #680 of 714
    dennisj00

    dennisj00 Hall Of Fame

    9,688
    194
    Sep 27, 2007
    Lake Norman, NC
    Runner, don't take things so personally! I didn't come at you - I responded to your post that claimed Manson can't be compared to this jerk since he didn't kill anyone directly.

    Chill.
     

Share This Page