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probably a stupid question

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by Angelus7310, Dec 22, 2008.

  1. Angelus7310

    Angelus7310 Cool Member

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    As noted in the title, this is more than likely a foolish question. I've got the hr20-700, connected to a 1080/24 compatible television. Used the info trick to set up 1080p resolution support. My question is, where can I find programming in 1080p to verify that it is working. I've tried turning native off, and deselecting all other video formats, but it appears that I am still viewing everything in 1080i. Are there any stations broadcasting in 1080p atm? or will I simply have to purchase a 1080p VOD program to verify. Thank you for your help with my curiosity on this relatively unimportant issue. :D
     
  2. GrumpyBear

    GrumpyBear Hall Of Fame

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    There are no Stations prodcasting in 1080p atm, only 1080 source is a Blu-Ray player. VOD is your only choice to see a 1080p source.
     
  3. rhambling

    rhambling Godfather

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    search for the hulk test video. iirc, the only 1080p video on VOD
     
  4. cygnusloop

    cygnusloop Hall Of Fame

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    One point of clarification.

    The 1080p mode on the HR2x's does not behave like the other resolutions. For example, if you have ONLY 1080i selected, all other resolutions will be converted to that resolution (as you know). Same thing with 720p or 480p, for that matter.

    With 1080p, this does not happen. Only material that is native 1080/24p will be shown in that format by the HR2x. 480i/p, 720p, and 1080i will only be scaled to 1080i, even if you have ONLY 1080p enabled. This is as designed behavior.

    My speculation on why this is the case has to do with the frame rates. The 1080p mode is ONLY 24Hz. All other resolutions broadcast by DIRECTV are 60Hz. Odd results could be seen if the HR2x was converting the 60Hz (whether 60i or 30p) to 24Hz. This is probably something you wouldn't want to have happening.

    Now, if the HR2x was capable of outputing 1080/60p, you could make a (good) case that there should be an option to have the HR2x convert 720p and 1080i to that resolution. But, alas, this is not the case. And, even so, it would just be a choice between the HR2x converting the material to 1080/60p vs. your HDTV converting the material to 1080/60p, which it is already doing.

    It is possible, perhaps even likely that your HDTV is already doing a better job of deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p and scaling 720p to 1080p than the HR2x would be capable of doing. If there is a difference, however, it is likely very subtle, one way or the other.
     
  5. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    The native mode of the NFL network is 1080p24. This raises a question of whether a DVR or TV set to 1080i doesn't add pullup to the output and essentially turn it into 1080i30, but technically, that is a source for 1080p24, 24/7.

    All movies broadcast in 1080i30 are similar. The encoder senses pulldown and (pulls it back up and) actually transmits what was originally 24 fps content as 24p, which improves encoding and compression efficiency (this is known as "film mode" and is always in effect for 24 fps content with pulldown). Your local decoder re-adds pulldown so that it is sent to the display as 1080i30, which may be what NFL is doing. Regardless, the content for all 1080i30 movies is sent technically as 1080p24.

    If converted to 1080i30, that will add judder. But it will not add interlace error that typical 1080i30 has for 30 fps video, so is still an improvement over 1080i.

    We have had sets for a while now that remove judder by using a 120 Hz refresh rate (each field displayed 5 times per second rather than field 1 displayed 3 times and field 2 displayed twice). But some of the very newest HDTV's also have the ability to actually construct intermediate frames, which obviates the motion artifact errors of 24 fps content by displaying up to 5 unique fields per frame instead of scanning the same field 5 times in a row.
     
  6. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The NFL network is broadcast in 1080p/24?

    I didn't know anyone broadcasts in 1080p.

    Mike
     
  7. Greg Alsobrook

    Greg Alsobrook Lifetime Achiever

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    That has been brought up around here once before. I asked for a source but never received one. AFAIK... NFL network is 1080i.
     
  8. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    I think you have it pretty close. The reason 24p movies are converted back to 1080i30 by adding pulldown at the local STB when broadcast from a 1080i source is because of the interstitial programming (mostly the commercials) which typically originate as 30 fps content. It would mean a nasty glitch each time they go to or come out of a commercial break as the display tries to switch gears between 24 Hz and 60 Hz were pulldown not re-added (unless everyone had a 120 HZ TV, which would be nice, but not the way things are).

    NFL net may not do this. They crossconvert all 30 fps content to 24p before it is broadcast (and there are no local affils that add local spots), so it may be that some viewers with 24p-capable sets are truly seeing their content in 24p. If a TV station carries an ad hoc NFL net game, they are required to crossconvert NFL to their station's native rate (1080i or 720p).
     
  9. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    Well, you don't have to take my word for it, but I think my information is unimpeachable nonetheless. I am the guy who actually was charged with the responsibility of doing the crossconversion from their native rate of 1080p24 (actually 23.96) to 720p for an AZ Cards game carried locally on Thanksgiving, so what I am telling you is first-hand, and not speculation. We carried their net feed in house converted from 24p for a week before the game. So now, AFAYK... NFL net is 1080p24. :)
     
  10. Greg Alsobrook

    Greg Alsobrook Lifetime Achiever

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    Well, in that case, I stand corrected. :)

    Very cool! Thanks for the info!
     
  11. cygnusloop

    cygnusloop Hall Of Fame

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    But, the question is, are we getting it as such from DIRECTV? I'm not at home now, but my recollection is that it is coming down from the bird in 1080i at present, no?

    I have 1080p enabled on both of my HR2x's and I have a 1080/24p capable HDTV. I don't recall that the resolution changed to 1080p on the HR's while watching the game last Saturday night. Did I just miss it??
     
  12. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I always thought that DirecTV had to pass what ever resolution the the broadcaster provided.

    Mike
     
  13. BattleZone

    BattleZone Hall Of Fame

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    It doesn't matter what format a network uses internally; what matters is what they send out. NFL is NOT sending out 1080/24p, as it would not be compatible with most of the systems that receive their signal, nor 90+% of endusers.
     
  14. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Yeah but TomCat has first hand knowledge to the contrary so there would seem to be no supposition here.

    Mike
     
  15. BattleZone

    BattleZone Hall Of Fame

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    TomCat has first-hand knowledge that they use 1080/24p internally, but again, that's irrelevant to getting the signal to DirecTV (or other sources), as most of the stations's "clients" aren't able to use that format.
     
  16. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    Their sat feed is 1080p24. That is by definition not "internal". Is this the same feed that DTV gets? Probably. Anyone with a crossconverter can access and convert this signal to whatever format they wish. Does DTV convert it to another format? I can't imagine they would need to. If your DVR is set to output 1080i or 720p, then that is what your display gets, regardless of what format the signal arrives at the DVR in (remember, the only thing different will be the metadata flags that tell the decoder how to format it for display). 1080p24, 1080i, 720p, those are all very similar and each simply a string of packets in a transport stream with nothing really differentiating them other than that metadata flag. If you set your DVR to native, whatever passes through the box (which should not be changed as far as format goes) will go to your display, and depending on your display, will be formatted to whatever the native rez your display has. If your display can handle the refresh rate of 24 without adding judder, you are seeing true 1080p24 (assuming DTV doesn't convert it to 1080i).

    DTV nor anyone else is forced to carry the original format, there is always the option to convert it if they need to. That adds complexity and expense, but could be done. Is particularly easy if you also have to convert to MPEG-4, because you can make the conversion right there.

    Compatibility is a non issue. All ATSC and all DVB tuners are compatible with all authorized formats by definition, so it would not be a problem for anyone to receive and display 1080p24, but it might be changed to 1080p60 in many displays (atually, 1080p24 with added judder). I don't know if they (DTV) do convert it, and logic says that they probably would not need to, but not knowing all of the particular reasons I might not have accounted for, maybe we need to try an experiment to find out. If someone could set their DVR to native and see if all the rez lights go out (does that not indicate 1080p?) I think we might have our answer.
     
  17. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Based on TomCat's reporting of the NFL network being native 1080p/24... I suspect that Directv is currently converting it before it gets sent to us... for now... However, once Directv gets all their MPEG-4 HD boxes working with 1080P/24, I have a feeling that we will see them run that station in 1080p/24, because even if you don't have a 1080p tv, the box can convert it to 1080i for those customers... I also suspect that that will not be the only station that goes 1080p/24 to customers in 2009..

    With that said, right now,other than the Hulk trailer, there is none available.
     
  18. compnurd

    compnurd Hall Of Fame

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    I suspect we see no stations go 1080P in 2009 due to costs and also due to the fact very few systems will be able to support multiple 1080P channels... and not that i have an issue with tomcats experiance, i also doubt NFL network is putting out 1080P
     
  19. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    The question of whether they are "putting out" 1080p24 or not has been answered definitively, and the answer is that they are. That is their native format, just like ABC is using 720p. You can take that to the bank and cash it just like you can a check that says the sun will rise each day in the east. If you still doubt that, it could only mean that you just are not paying attention. The remaining question is whether or not it is being converted to 1080i30 before it gets to DTV subs. Even if it is ariving as 1080p24, most sets will display it as 1080i30, or IOW, a non-compliant 1080p set will add pulldown and display it as 1080p60.

    I would not count on many nets wanting to have 1080p24 as their native format, but not for any technical limitations, as there really are none, other than all content must be converted before broadcast to 1080p24 if not already natively 1080p24, and 99% of content is not (although that is not a difficult task). The reason NFL did it is probably because of their huge legacy library of NFL films (obviously shot in 24 fps progressive) and their love for 24 fps progressive because of their close affiliation with that content. It really does not make a lot of sense for most nets to do it, and 1080p24 is not really much different in PQ than 1080i30 or 720p60 in the first place. The Blu-Ray marketers have tried to hang their hats on it as if it is the end-all and be-all, but it is probably indistinguishably different than the main formats, and it probably could not be determined what of any of those 3 formats were simply by viewing them on a commercial display in a double-blind experiment.
     
  20. dennisj00

    dennisj00 Hall Of Fame

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    I don't doubt your explanation that NFL Network is sending out 1080/24p but it's not arriving! Both of my Sonys play 1080/24p content perfectly and the NFLN only shows 1080i.

    And I do disagree that the PQ 'is not really much different'. It is on my TVs!

    I might agree that I couldn't tell the difference in native 720p or 1080i but it would probably depend on the TV / scalar. I run 1080i with Native off (and also 1080/24p checked.)

    While the Directv 1080p programming may not be exactly BR quality, either something is wrong with your tv or your eyes / viewing distance if you can't tell the difference in PQ of either! It's not just marketing!
     

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