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PVR Charges are Illegal and Wrong

Discussion in 'Standard Definition Receiver Support Forum' started by ekammerzelt, Jun 16, 2005.

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  1. WhiteForMe

    WhiteForMe Mentor

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    May 29, 2005
    Well thanks for that info RB. I was wondering what all the talk was about! My sat bill is next highest to my house payment :) So it's nice to know that dvr fee wont be sneaking in there.
     
  2. BobaBird

    BobaBird EKB Editor

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    Mar 30, 2002
    I believe you're correct about no SA dual-tuner TiVo and, of course, about the usefulness of the Dish dual output receivers. I'm not familiar with the $50 you refer to but it makes sense that more functions = higher price.

    My main point was that the argument or perception that "TiVo has a fee so it's OK for Dish to have one too" is not valid because Dish does not provide the service that TiVo does (some would add that TiVo works better but that's also not a reason for a fee).
    • SA TiVo requires a guide subscription for the NBR features to work and is charged per DVR because each has to phone in
    • The DirecTiVo guide has more program detail in addition to being longer than the standard D* guide. They are selling a different product, not just giving a bit more of the same. This increases the chance of success with NBR and manual searches when looking for favorite actors and directors. DirecTiVo gets the guide from the satellite; no phone call is required so the fee is reduced and is charged per account. (There may still be phone calls to report ratings but those are much shorter w/o the guide d/l.)
     
  3. KingLoop

    KingLoop Custom User Title DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Mar 3, 2005
    The $50 I was talking about was the purchase of a 2nd TiVo...

    I agree that the DVR fee kind of sucks, and I also agree that it seems people in general like the TiVo better than any other DVR.

    My point was that if you want the functionality of the 522/625 or 942, and you want E* programming you have no choice but to pay the fee. The closest you could get with SD receivers would be say (2) 311s and (2) SA TiVos on the same TV. Even if you paid the lifetime fee You'd still be out $5/mth for the additional outlet. Plus you'd be out of pocket for the TiVos. (Me, I like E*s guide better than D*s.)
     
  4. Evil Capserian

    Evil Capserian Godfather

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    Jul 27, 2003
    Oh gosh, this thread is going on too long. Hey mods. time to close.
     
  5. welchwarlock

    welchwarlock Legend

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    Jan 5, 2005
    Sure they are. Purchased my 921 at Frys (Also available at CostCo) has a JVC label on it. Get it home, plug it in, call them up to switch out my active receiver ID's, now I have to pay more per month.

    Again, can you imagine, you go buy a new cell phone that has built in voice mail (The phone stores the messages internally like an answering machine), then the phone company ups your rate because the cell phone has a new capability that does not actually use any resources from the cell phone company; it was inherit in the phone. It should be illegal.

    WW
     
  6. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    So, you're saying that you called Dish to activate a receiver you purchased elsewhere... but didn't bother to read the terms and conditions for activating that receiver first?

    But on a different matter... Why are you paying more for a 921? I wasn't aware that the 921 had any fees different from say an 811 as a secondary receiver.
     
  7. the_bear

    the_bear Godfather

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    Oct 18, 2004
    You have not proved that Dish made a “deliberate attempt to deceive.”
     
  8. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    21,579
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    Jan 7, 2005
    Kittrell, NC
    I forgot earlier to reply to the second part of your post... I'll grant you that I wouldn't like paying a fee that seemed to me like it was pure profit because the phone (hypothetical in your example) would have the features anyway...

    But, businesses are in business (key word) to make money... If a business only charged exactly as much as their expenses were... then they would be a non-profit organization!

    So, technically, all businesses that are making a profit are charging more than they have to... so they can make a profit... so by your definition, all profitable companies should be illegal.

    That doesn't make any sense does it? Again, I say that if everything I didn't like was illegal, there would be a lot of crazy laws. How come some weeks I go to Target and Pepsi is $2.50 for a 12-pack of cans and other times it is $4.69 for the same 12-pack? I think it should be illegal to keep changing the price when it costs Pepsi the same amount to make it each month.

    I think it should be illegal to be illegal. We should make a law that says it is illegal to break the law.

    But seriously... I am tempted to think it should be illegal to think it should be illegal when it shouldn't.
     
  9. welchwarlock

    welchwarlock Legend

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    Jan 5, 2005
    Business is Business...Granted.....But
    1) Charging me a fee because my receiver has a UHF remote should be illegal...I paid more to get the UHF remote.
    2) Charging me a fee because my receiver has a bigger HD than the other receiver should be illegal...I paid more to get the bigger HD.
    3) Charging me a fee because I bought a VCR and are recording the shows for later viewing should be illegal... I paid for the VCR.

    Give me some Value for the Fee. Do something for me. Earn the Fee. Not only do I have to pay a fee for the DVR I have to pay a fee for the GUIDE DATA! If you don't subscribe to the local channels, you don't get the guide data for the OTA channels, which, by the way technically is ILLEGAL. Local channel guide data is broadcast over the air, and is free to any equipment capable of using it. Dish Network has proven with the L214 release of software that they can deliver the guide data to the customer. The FCC has regulations indicate that it is ILLEGAL to charge for it, as it is being sent in the clear. The lawsuit is probably in the works right now.

    Back to the DVR...They waive the fee if you by the "Everything" package, so any arguments on their end about the fee being anything other than a profit center is bogus.

    Their commercials about cable companies being Pigs is so hypocritical. They are the Pigs... DVR Fee, Local Channel Fee, Second Receiver Fee, Multi Tuner Fee (hook up 2 942 receivers, pay additional fees on second unit), Not Hooked up to the Phone Jack Fee, etc, etc...

    You don't have to buy the Pepsi that week....If I downgrade my Dish Network Service for a week guess what.... You get a Frapping DOWNGRADE of service Fee!!!!

    WW
     
  10. welchwarlock

    welchwarlock Legend

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    Jan 5, 2005
    Checking the 921 Manual: Appendix Starting on Page 130...
    Section A: Definition of Service.
    Section B: Programming Changes: "A fee may apply"
    Section C: Programming availability
    Section D: Pay-Per-View.. "Fees will apply"
    Section E: Private Viewing
    Section F: Additional Receivers "fee will apply"
    Section G: Changes in Service
    Section H: Multi Month Subscriptions
    Section I: Fees for receivers that Independly support Multiple Televisions

    In Section 2, Paragraph F, a disclosure of all Fees:
    Smart Card Replacement $50
    Additional Outlet Programm Fee, Per Receiver $4.99
    Late Payment $5
    Change of Service Fee $5
    Duplicate Billing Statement Fee $2
    Overnight Delivery Fee $18
    Restart Fee $25
    Returned Payment Fee $25
    Service Access Fee $5 (What is this?)
    Offset Fee $2 (What the hell is this?)
    Ledger Request Fee $5
    Pay-Per-View Automated Fee $1
    Pay-Per-View Fee $5

    NO DVR FEE IS LISTED IN THE SERVICE AGREEMENT!!!!

    WW
     
  11. welchwarlock

    welchwarlock Legend

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    Jan 5, 2005
    Check my previous post...No DVR Fee is listed in the service agreement. Your appology is humbly accepted. :)

    A 921 has a Hard Disk Drive....DVR Fee...Plus the Local Chanel Guide Fee, which you don't have to pay on the 821! So you pay $10 a month more for a 921 than an 811!

    WW
     
  12. Ron Barry

    Ron Barry 622 Tips & Trick Keeper

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    Dec 10, 2002
    Just for the record. Dish's guide data is not the same as the guide data transmitted OTA. Dish is not just rebroadcasting what is in the OTA PSIP stream. Not sure if that point holds water.

    As to the fees.. I would agree that some are excessive and personally would like to see no fee for just local guide data. I think Dish needs to personally rethink this business decision.

    As to quoting from the manual to support your assertion in regards to fees, manuals by nature tend to be dated and usually are finalized well before a product is released. I am suprised the fees are even printed in the manual. And manuals can have bugs too. ;)
     
  13. BobaBird

    BobaBird EKB Editor

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    Mar 30, 2002
    To those who say Dish can charge anything they want: please PM me your name and billing address. I'll send you a monthly statement. For what? Don't worry, it'll sound plausible. Still think I'm just trying to pull the wool over your eyes? I'll get a business license since that seems to be irrefutable proof of legitimacy.

    Seriously, I don't think anyone has suggested Dish shouldn't make a profit. We understand how capitalism works but we also recognize hucksterism.

    PSIP is OT for this thread, but as I understand it, the FCC intends for all DTV receivers to be able to display at least the limited guide data included in DTV broadcasts. For the 811 Dish has opted to provide their own more-detailed guide but the 921 and 942 get *nothing* unless the subscriber adds LIL.

    WW, the service access fee is assessed for not having an AT, DL, or GW package.

    Ron, Dish has known since the 510 that all future DVRs would have the fee. Surely the manual for the 921 was not printed before there was even an announcement that it was being developed.
     
  14. KingLoop

    KingLoop Custom User Title DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Mar 3, 2005
    Dish says if you want to activate a 510, 522, 625, 921, or 942 to your account your bill will be charged and additional $5/mth. This is the fee involved in CHOOSING to subscribe to Dish Network programming. At the time you activate a receiver the dish CSR says your new programming rate will be $XX.XX. You agree. End of story. It's OK to not like something. It is still a choice. As I've said before...

     
  15. larrystotler

    larrystotler Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Jun 6, 2004
    The 921 has the Video on Demand or DVR fee of $4.98/month unless you have the AEP. Also, if you lease an 811 or 942, you HAVE to have the HD pack in order to be able to keep the receiver.
     
  16. larrystotler

    larrystotler Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Jun 6, 2004
    Where are you getting $10? That is NOT the case. If you want the guide info, you have to subscribe to the locals on either unit. So, unless you have the AEP, the 921 is $4.98/month more.
     
  17. larrystotler

    larrystotler Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Jun 6, 2004
    That's not true. Costs fluctuate for the manufacturer and they pass them along to the consumer. Why can I get a bag of chips for $0.99 at a mom and pop convience store, but have to pay $1.59 at 7-11? That's called capitalism. And who the hell ever said that life isn't fair? Cause it aint.
     
  18. hdaddikt

    hdaddikt Legend

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    Jul 2, 2005
    Or, just keeping buying it 7-11 for $4.99, at least the price does not keep changing.

    Economics is so much more than the narrow perspective you are presenting. Supply and demand are basic. But beyond that, the price of oil does affect the price of other commodities too. As just one example.

    This is also why women make good shoppers. Because they have the patience to shop everyday and monitor price changes. Often there is a pattern, one example is the freshness of bread is dictated by the color of the plastic clip on the end.

    That's why if there is a woman in your life, let her deal with those things. We men will just sit back and read and write about techie things and cars, and when the Pep Boys, or Best Buy ad on Sunday has something we need at (finally) the right price, we just go down and get it. Easy in, easy out!

    Dish may seem to have their own agenda, but it's largely dictated by THAT industry as whole, and trying to keep their Gorilla status.
    When all the providers get on a more even level prices should reflect more competition, which will benefit all of us.

    Just thought I would lighten up this topic a bit... :)
     
  19. garypen

    garypen Hall Of Fame/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Feb 1, 2004
    811 gives guide info for OTA channels without subbing to Dish locals, doesn't it? The 921 does not. (Of course, the 811 does not get it's info via OTA PSIP, even though virtually all other brand of OTA HD receiver does. Apparently, Dish engineers can't decipher that bit of the DiVinci code.)
     
  20. the_bear

    the_bear Godfather

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    Oct 18, 2004
    If Dish made an “honest error” in their fee disclosure, you should be able to get your money back on the 921. I still don’t see the “deliberate attempt to deceive”.

    What is important is what was disclosed before you purchased the 921. I assume the box says something like, “Fees may apply”?
     
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