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RBR or Menu Reset

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by mridan, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. Oct 7, 2013 #1 of 28
    mridan

    mridan Godfather

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    Reading some posts here and people with problems on their DVR's doing RBR's. Haven't been on this website for a long time, but I recall that it was better to do a menu reset as opposed to a RBR. I know it can't be done if the DVR is locked up. I thought doing a menu reset was easier on the DVR's system than a RBR.
     
  2. Oct 7, 2013 #2 of 28
    Jason Whiddon

    Jason Whiddon Hall Of Fame

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    I always do a menu reset if I can. One reset on my new HR44 in a week, and it was because teh 44 would recognize all remote button hits except select, so I could not use the menu reset.
     
  3. Oct 7, 2013 #3 of 28
    gov

    gov Legend

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    Generally,

    try the menu reset first


    -then-

    if you're still dead in the water, try the RBR



    Still 'effed' up?

    unplug the beast for a few minutes



    after that, unplug over night



    then sacrifice a small animal, and then your firstborn son.


    After that you can call DirecTV




    :coffee
     
  4. Oct 7, 2013 #4 of 28
    mridan

    mridan Godfather

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    LMAO!
     
  5. Oct 7, 2013 #5 of 28
    RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    You should only RBR if the unit is locked up and unresponsive.
     
  6. Oct 7, 2013 #6 of 28
    gov

    gov Legend

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    Locked up and unresponsive being subtly different from 'dead in the water'


    !rolling
     
  7. Oct 7, 2013 #7 of 28
    Diana C

    Diana C Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    Using the menu to reboot the DVRs is a safer way to reset. The DVRs use a journaling file system which "should" be able to deal with an abrupt reset, but using the restart menu lets all the open files close and tasks complete.

    For non-DVRs, I don't think it makes any difference.
     
  8. Oct 7, 2013 #8 of 28
    gov

    gov Legend

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    Going serious for a minute, a nearby community has FREQUENT power outages, like weekly winter and spring, and at least 1 or 2 times a month no matter the season.

    I take it that is ungood in the extreme ?
     
  9. Oct 7, 2013 #9 of 28
    RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    And regardless of the file system having journaling or not it's not good on the hard drive to just RBR.
     
  10. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    Someone in that community should have their DVRs hooked up to a UPS.
     
  11. Jason Whiddon

    Jason Whiddon Hall Of Fame

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    I always keep mine on a UPS. Thats other great thing about satellite, it keeps recording off the UPS :)
     
  12. Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

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    Winters,...
    You are correct. It's safer to do a menu reset, but millions of customers do nothing but RBRs and are still living.
     
  13. peds48

    peds48 DIRECTV A-Team DBSTalk Club

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    :wave:
     
  14. joed32

    joed32 Hall Of Fame

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    Yes they are, in fact Directv's tech site always recommends an RBR and I've never heard of anyone having a problem because of that.
     
  15. o7RAVENS

    o7RAVENS Mentor

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    Oct 28, 2007
    Baltimore Md.
    That's me I did two RBRs trying to get rid of the( to record this program press the red button tip)
    I didn't know about the menu reset thing
    If needed in future I will use menu reset
    another good thing coming from this site, thanks
     
  16. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    There are three tasks that might be happening, not counting response to remote button presses, and they are recording, playing back, and indexing.

    There is no reason to fret about the first two, because we generally know that recording and playback will be interrupted and we don't care at that point. But what about indexing?

    Indexing is a way of representing metadata with multiple data points as a single datapoint, which makes searching and displaying guide content faster, and it happens automatically most of the time in the background. It is a strategy for doing lots of work ahead of time to make tasks in the moment easier and faster. Think of a building full of books that are unorganized as an unindexed database. If you want a book you have to check each title one by one until you find the one you are looking for. An indexed database is analogous to a library card catalog system, where the librarian has done the work ahead of time so that all you have to do is access an alphabetized list, and that will direct you to the book you want quickly. This is why indexing exists.

    Indexing is a low-level task meaning that if the DVR gets busy with something important, such as changing the channel or starting a recording, it may defer indexing for the moment. If you interrupt indexing (which a GUI reset does not do but a RBR does do, and rudely) some minor indexing data does not get written to the HDD. But after reboot the DVR picks right up where it left off, reindexes that data, and moves on, journaled or not,

    This means that the difference between interrupting indexing rudely (RBR) and courteously waiting until the data is written and indexing can pause at a logical break point (using a menu reset), is insignificantly minimal.

    It would be nice if you could explain why. I can explain why not, which is that when power drops to a HDD the actuator spring pulls the actuator back to a neutral position safely, which is also what happens when you stop R/W on the HDD while invoking a menu restart. There is no physical danger of any kind presented to a HDD when RBR is used or when pulling the power plug. As for the data, there is very little danger there as well. The worst that can happen is that the data about to be written is sprayed across the platter as the actuator pulls back, but the amount of data written is infinitesimal because the current needed to write it drops at approximately the very same instant in time.

    Theoretically, this could corrupt data which means you could induce a minor glitch into a recorded program, of if it writes to where the cataloging area is you could lose a program altogether, or if to where the OS is the drive loses the ability to boot the OS and reformats. But the odds are probably much less than getting struck by lightning while waiting for the reboot.

    So yes, there is a tiny, tiny risk. And why tempt fate? A menu reset is preferable mostly because most of us are too lazy to walk across the room anyway. But RBR would not have been made available to us if it was at all problematic, and there are times you need it.
     
  17. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    But we do see people all the time with hard drive issues. Who knows for sure why the drive died.
     
  18. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL DIRECTV A-Team

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    Throw your car in park while driving 80mph down the Interstate and see how that works out for you. That's the same as doing an RBR on a spinning/reading/writing drive.
     
  19. Diana C

    Diana C Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    True, if the indexing is run the way it is in a commercial database system (i.e. with transaction boundaries and commit phases). I don't know whether the DirecTV databases are like that or not, but I HAVE had disk corruption with power failures (back before we had a UPS for every DVR) and RBRs over the years. Journaling is supposed to put the entire drive under a database-like "Begin transaction/Commit transaction" process, but I can tell you from bitter experience that it doesn't work that way all the time.
     
  20. Diana C

    Diana C Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

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    Perhaps a bit extreme of an analogy, but correct in spirit. We are not talking about server class operating systems or hardware here. When you cut power to a DVR the low voltage supplied to the circuitry and the drive motor does not go to zero instantly. For some period of time power regulator capacitors will discharge trying to keep the voltage constant, and then it will slope off. Sure, we're talking milli-seconds of uncertain voltages in different parts of the system, but that is all it takes to trash the hard drive. Yes, the odds of it happening to at any given reset is extremely tiny, but when you consider the millions of DVRs in use, it is almost certain to happen quite frequently. So, who wants to be the "1 in a million" that loses their recordings?

    Why indeed...that's why we suggest a Menu Reset unless the system is frozen and a RBR is the only option.
     

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