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Shoot Bambi dead...

Discussion in 'The OT' started by News Junky, Aug 25, 2007.

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  1. News Junky

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    ...and you’re a fine sportsman practicing your second amendment rights. Bull fight, you’re crazy but a brave entertainer. Dog fight, lose a multi-million dollar career and go to jail for up to 20 years. Why is it so evil to use a dog in one's twisted sense of entertainment but its okay to blow the brains out of a helpless deer with a high powered rifle? as an FYI: I'm not into either sport but I am questioning the possiblity of a double standard.

    http://www.waok.com/ is the website of a talk radio station in Atlanta, Michael Vick's city. The format is African American talk radio. I was listening last week and the comments were very interesting. Nearly 100% of the calls I heard generally accused the prosecution and the culture in general of a subconscious racism.


    Paraphrasing:

    "...only a few months ago police stormed into an elderly Black woman's house and shot her dead. Why weren't there thousands of white people with signs demonstrating in front of the courthouse demanding justice when SHE was slaughtered? The unanswered question that the Michael Vick case has brought to America is this, what's more valuable: the life of a Black woman of the life of a dog?" (ATLANTA (AP) — A police official said narcotics officers were justified in returning fire on a 92-year-old woman they shot to death after she shot them as they tried to serve a warrant at her house. Neighbors and relatives said it was a case of mistaken identity. But police said the woman, identified as Kathryn Johnston, was the only resident in the house at the time and had lived there for about 17 years.) http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-22-elderly-shootout_x.htm

    "...So its okay for Bubba to go hunting and kill animals but Michael Vick does the same blank thing they want to lynch him. What's the difference? Michael Vick is Black, that's the difference!"

    "...This is the first time in American history any person has faced animal cruelty charges under federal law. Are we supposed to believe Michael Vick invented dog fighting in America? "


    If you want to listen the best time 8am to 12noon eastern time Monday - Friday. I think you might need to register in order to listen.

    I'm not saying I agree that this is a racially charged witch-hunt but I do find these views very interesting and think its enlightening to hear the heart-felt perspectives of people with these views.
     
  2. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I cannot say race has nothing to do with Michael Vick's case... because that would be naive. However, I think it is safe to say MOST of the sentiment against him is not racially biased, but rather biased based upon most people's love for dogs.

    Strangely, the law thinks his gambling/conspiracy charges are more offensive than the dog fighting OR the killing of the dogs, because that is where the real jailtime lay. If he "merely" killed dogs, that would be a misdemeanor vs the felony of the racketeering across state lines involved in the gambling. So basically our own legal system does not judge the dog fighting as harshly as the general public.

    I too have asked about the double standard... I do not understand hunting at all. I do understand killing animals for food, and I like hamburgers, so I am not completely against killing of animals because that would be hypocritical of me... but I do not understand hunting as a "sport" any more or less than dog fighting.

    I have been torn in Vick's case. On the one hand wanting him to be punished for the mistreatment and killing of the animals once proven/admitted... on the other wondering why the gambling charges are seen legally as more offensive than the animal mistreatment.

    I also have to agree that if he serves his time, and makes restitution and apologies... he should have the right to a 2nd chance as much as anyone. I can only say that I personally would not give him a 2nd chance with me, as that too is my right... but I don't think we have the right to forbid him from all 2nd chances.

    So I think an NFL lifetime ban would be excessive. I say let him serve his jail time, pay his fines, and then see where we are in a year or 2... then the NFL should probably give him the opportunity to play if a team wants him. I do believe, though, that the Atlanta Falcons have the right now to dump him and possibly get money back from his contract since it was Vick's unlawful actions that brought all this down... and Atlanta shouldn't have to take him back at any point, and that they probably shouldn't want to.
     
  3. Richard King

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    Part of the difference is that hunters usually are hunting for food AND they try to make quick work of the killing process. Vick's "sport" involved having animals fight to the death, not a quick, painless process. Sure, sometimes a hunted animal won't die quickly, but that is not the INTENTION of the sport, where in dog fighting the intention is to make the pain for the animals last as long as possible.
     
  4. Steve Mehs

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    I'm not an animal lover, but I'm not saying go around and torture little puppies either, but what I really don't understand is this whole thing is getting such outrage from the public, but yet when a human kills another human it's just shrugged off . Andrea Yates can drown her innocent children and the country feels compassion for her. Any punishment for her besides a hug of sympathy would be considered cruel and unusual punishment. Parent’s can ‘forget’ their 18 month old kid locked in hot car all day until the child dies and the so called parents guilt is supposed to be punishment enough. It’s BS. Screw the Vick crap and screw animal rights. Let’s focus on human on human crime and punishment and then after that’s somewhat perfected, animals can be next.
     
  5. purtman

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    I will say that race may have something to do with this. Dog fighting is a cultural thing. I've never known nor heard of a white person who is involved in dog fighting. That being said, that doesn't mean that there are none. However, if you look at the people who have stood up to defend Michael Vick and said that this was okay, they are all African-American.
    I would like to know how many of those people on the same station called to complain about the whole Duke lacrosse fiasco. Probably none.
     
  6. Sharkie_Fan

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    Agreed... and part of the outrage, IMHO, comes from the METHOD of killing in this instance.... If the guys involved in killing the dogs would have just pulled out a pistol and taken 1 shot to the head of each dog, I think the outrage would be tempered a little bit.... But when you kill them by drowning, electrocution, body slamming them... There's a sick torturous element there that is disturbing...

    To me, this particular situation goes beyond 'just' dogfighting and killing a few dogs... These guys didn't just want to get rid of the dogs, they wanted to "teach them a lesson" on their way out...

    I don't necessarily "understand" hunting for sport, and I've never done it, but I'm not got so much of the "animal lover" that I'm against ever killing another animal... But even a "sport" hunter is looking to finish off the animal in a quick manner... He's not out there to torture an animal until it dies... And to me, that's what Vick and his pals did and that's what I find distasteful about the whole scenario...

    And... getting back to the original topic... I think both the prosecutions vigor and the public's outrage has less to do with Vick being black and more to do with him being as high a profile athlete as there is in sports right now... He's one of the top names in sports, and, like it or not, he's a "role model"... For the public, there's outrage that a high profile person like Michael Vick is torturing animals... For the prosecution, there is a message to be sent... If Michael Vick with all his star power can't get away with it... how much worse is it going to be for Joe Schmo with his 50$ an hour attorney and his mismatched pants & sports coat... Michael Vick has millions of dollars and an army of attorneys and if he's staring down the barrel of 12-18 months in prison... Look out average Joe...
     
  7. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Saturday Night Live is a clip show and they played the clip of when they talked about Michael Vick being caught at the Miami Airport with drugs in a water bottle.

    That seemed to have been forgotten. Yep, the football players that beat their wives and girlfriends get less of a penalty than Vick is facing for cruelty to animals. I don't believe it has anything to do with color ... just an oddity in our society where human life isn't always as protected as animal life.
     
  8. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    That's odd... because this is the first time I've heard of a black man being involved in dog fighting. Typically when I have heard of it, it has been a redneck sort of thing somewhere in the south out in a rural area with hick folks. FYI, I am born and raised and lived all my life in North Carolina, so I have the right to call some of the southern folks here "hick" if the shoe fits!


    Thing is... often people who come out to defend anyone are close friends and family... so it is no surprise a lot of black people are defending Vick because his family and a lot of his closest friends are of his same race. If a white guy was accused of the same crime, I would expect lots of white supporters for the exact same reason. Not about race, but because of people you know.
     
  9. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I don't know about the "hunting for food" aspect... So I'll switch gears for a moment... what about fishing? I mean the kind of fishing where they pull up a fish by its mouth with a hook... pull out the hook... and throw back the injured fish? Those fishermen are just out there luring and torturing innocent fish for fun and only cook/eat a small portion of what they catch in a day. That has always seemed cruel to me, but there are TV shows dedicated to show you how to do it better.
     
  10. Sharkie_Fan

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    Except, again, with fishing, the goal is not to torture a fish until it dies... When they release the fish, it goes on to live a happy, fulfilled life with it's little fish family... unless, of course, it's dumb enough to bite another hook full of bait... :D

    I don't enjoy fishing at all, but obviously fishermen enjoy the "sport" of it, but they attempt to make their "sport" as "humane" as possible... releasing the fish they don't want back to their habitat where they continue to live.
     
  11. Richard King

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    or they take them home with them and have a great meal
     
  12. Rich

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    Max Kellerman has a talk show on ESPN Radio (1050 AM) every day at 10 AM. His contention is that since pigs have been proven to be smarter than dogs, the whole pork industry should be put out of business. If you listen to him long enough to get his views straight, he actually makes sense. I've been listening to him all summer long and he's a pretty bright guy who is not prone to outlandish statements or opinions. He started the pig stuff after Vick was arrested.

    I had a Staffordshire Terrier which is the correct name for most of the dogs referred to as Pit Bulls. She was a nice, calm dog. Never attacked anyone. She weighed about 40 pounds and was the strongest dog I have ever had. Smelled though, my God, she smelled. Give her a bath and 5 minutes later she stunk. I gave her to a friend of mine who had a ranch out West and fortunately was visiting relatives in NJ and stopped over for a beer. He sent me pictures of her on the ranch and in the heated and air conditioned shed he kept his dogs in at night. He said she still stunk.

    I have a friend who had a pig for a pet. They are smart, they are easily house broken, will walk on a leash and have the nastiest coat of any pet I have come into contact with. And he smelled and would roll in anything at the first opportunity.

    To get back to your question about the double standard, if we look at the history of the last 50 years, we find that Muhammed Ali was punished for refusing to join the army. He was punished by a country that would not allow him to fight. Took away his livelihood. Mike Tyson rapes (or did he?) a girl in Indiana and goes to prison. Hank Aaron is vilified for breaking Ruth's home run record. Pete Rose is prohibited from working in any capacity for a Major League team. Mark McGuire in not voted into the hall of fame because he is ACCUSED by the press of using steroids.. Roger Maris is vilified for breaking Ruth's single season home run record. Rafiel Palmiero finds himself shut out of baseball because of steroids. Barry Bonds is accused by many people of using steroids, ignores them and is vilified for breaking Aaron's home run record and he is still playing.

    Out of all of these instances, the two that disturbed me the most were Ali and Tyson. What disturbed me was not seeing them fight during the peak years of their careers. I have never really believed the Tyson rape story and all Ali did was what thousands of Americans did prior to and during the VietNam war. Only difference was he stood there like a man and did it instead of skulking off to Canada or getting deferments for ridiculous reasons.

    I think there is still a bit of a "double standard", but it's a hell of a lot better than it was in the middle of the last century.

    As for the hunting, people are always going to hunt, nothing to be done about that.

    Oh, one more thing. Suppose Brett Favre had been caught doing what Vick was doing?
     
  13. Rich

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  14. paulman182

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    I am a vegetarian and have never hunted.

    However, I can easily see the difference between hunting animals, and the killing of dogs. Dogs have been genetically altered through thousands of years of breeding to live with and assist humans. There is a reason they are called "man's best friend." People who do not understand this should not comment on animal cruelty cases until they become better informed.

    Just because human murder and abuse is not sufficiently prosecuted is no reason not to prosecute Michael Vick. I suppose some would say we should stop giving out speeding tickets and fining polluters until we sufficiently punish all the murderers. No relationship at all.
     
  15. Sharkie_Fan

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    The whole pig deal is lost on me... sorry. :)

    As to Favre... Sadly, there would probably be less outrage if this was Favre instead of Vick... Society, on the whole, tends to give a "pass" to people they like. Brett always seemed like a "good ole boy", and he's had family tragedies over the last several years, and so he's a sympathetic figure.... And I admit, if I was reading these things about Favre, I'd probably be saying something along the lines of "Isn't it sad Favre did all these things... he always seemed like a nice guy"...

    I wouldn't for a second condone the actions, regardless of who it was... but, I've never been a big Vick fan, so there isn't alot of sympathy...

    But, to me at least, it comes down to personality... I don't disklike Vick because he's black... I dislike him because he seems arrogant, and hasn't seemed willing to work at his craft... arrogance and laziness would cost me my job and I don't find them appealing traits in others...

    If this were Denzel Washington, for instance, I'd have a similar reaction as if it were Favre...

    The more likable a person, the less willing people seem to be to "pile on"... but if you're not a particularly beloved person... look out because every Tom, Dick, and Harry is going to be on your back for whatever your transgression..
     
  16. bcrab

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    Hunting is legal, dog fighting illegal. No double standard there.
     
  17. Steve Mehs

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    There is a relationship. Animal lives are valued over that of another human and it's absolutely sickening. I know people who are so into animals and their pets they spend thousands and thousands of dollars every time a creature has a stomach ache, but yet can't be that worried about their own human family. I had a dog growing up, he died in 2001, it was terrible, but nothing compared to the loss of human life I've experienced. Let’s treat those who treat other humans as animals rot in jail. I’m not saying don’t prosecute animal abuse, I’m saying it’s pretty damn sick when Michael Vick (and I don’t think much of him) will get more jail time then murders who plead down to a parking ticket or do the insanity thing and get sent to a nut hut instead of an 8x10 cell with solid steel bars where they belong.

    I think it was the domestic terrorist group, PETA that put out a Micheal Vick dog chew toy, can you imagine the outrage if some group put out an Andrea Yates pool toy?
     
  18. purtman

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    The percentage of population that values animals over humans is very, very, very small

    Can you name one?

    If Michael Vick did to humans what he did to animals, he would be on death row. Andrea Yates had a serious mental issue. Calling PETA a domestic terrorist group is sssssssstttttttttrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeetttttttccccccchhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnggggg it. Can you same some of their terrorist acts -- blown up maybe a rodeo, slaughtered meat-eaters, etc.?
     
  19. Steve Mehs

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    Anyone that commits a serious violent crime against another person, I don’t give a damn if your white, black or purple, I don’t care if you have a genius IQ or if you are a mental kook, you should get a heavy jail sentence, no plea agreements, no nothing murder is murder, rape is rape, and so on. I don’t have to provide proof or any examples, watch the news, how many murders are actually getting what they deserve? White collar criminals like Rigas from Adelphia are getting worse jail sentences. I’m not glorifying any type of crime here, I just think this country needs to put more emphasis on the victim and punishment especially when it comes to the destruction of life. This summer there have been an enormous amount of infant/child deaths due to neglect in this area, drowning and leaving kids in cars. These innocent children are being treated like complete garbage by their own so called parents, and there's no justice, but Vick is Satan because of animal abuse. Somethings not right here.

    No Charges Filed Against Mom Who's Baby Died in Hot Car
    Jail Time For Drunk Driver Who Killed a Tonawanda Dad 6 Months? 6 Months???

    PETA is a cult that brainwashes their sheep, it’s pretty well known their against lab rat testing even if it can cure certain types of cancers and AIDS. To me that translates to hating the human race. Their tactics are disgraceful, their campaigns are immature, they are an organization of fringe wackos that will do just about anything to get their point across.
     
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