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Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV General Discussion' started by geaux tigers, Aug 2, 2010.

Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?

  1. Yes, DirecTv should lessen the EDID restrictions for watching 3D content.

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  2. No, the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good.

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  1. Aug 5, 2010 #161 of 233
    Tom Robertson

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    Actually they used the 1.3 standards to accomplish that which the standards were meant to accomplish. :)

    Unfortunately, most AVRs apparently [edit] don't know how to pass these frames thru. So you have to see if you can upgrade the firmware (possible for some of them) or upgrade to a 3D compatible AVR.

    Just like upgrading to HDMI some time ago...

    Cheers,
    Tom
     
  2. Aug 5, 2010 #162 of 233
    DarinC

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    Doug has suggested that the problem is due to VSI. VSI isn't a part of 1.3. Are you suggesting that the issue has nothing to do with VSI?

    Why is that unfortunate? :confused:

    Except that it's not like that. ;) Upgrading to HDMI brought capabilities that the former connections didn't provide. In this case, the capabilities are already there, but DirecTV won't let us use them.
     
  3. Aug 5, 2010 #163 of 233
    Jeremy W

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    To me, the issue is very clear. DirecTV is blocking something that they really have no reason to block. Sending the 3D signalling to switch the TV to 3D mode is great, but there's absolutely no reason to block the content from being displayed if a 3DTV isn't detected.

    I have a 3DTV, and it works just fine with DirecTV's 3D content. But I still don't see why anyone should be excluded.
     
  4. Aug 5, 2010 #164 of 233
    Doug Brott

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    so you subscribe to the notion to just send it along .. What if I were to turn my non-3DTV onto a 3D channel. Clearly my TV wouldn't respond with a "Yeah, I'm a good TV" so what would I see? Will it fix itself when I change to another channel? What if it doesn't?

    So the potential pitfalls with allowing a free for all on the 3D channels are legacy HD sets showing a garbled mess (snow, static, :shrug:) or worse.
     
  5. Aug 5, 2010 #165 of 233
    Jeremy W

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    You'd see two images, side-by-side.
    It will, because it's a standard picture. It's not going to hurt your TV.
    Legacy sets will show a side-by-side image. That's it. No garbled mess, no snow, no static. The attached image is exactly what it would look like.

    DirecTV could even pop up a message if a 3DTV isn't detected, warning the viewer that they may see a "scary" side-by-side image on their screen. I really don't see the big deal.
     

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  6. Aug 5, 2010 #166 of 233
    geaux tigers

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    I will try to be very clear. In the menu under System Setup there is an Audio option. Under the Audio option there is a Dolby Digital option. The Dolby Digital option gives you the choice to turn Dolby Digital On or Off. It states "When set to On, Dolby Digital will play for programs that offer it. If your TV or stereo doesn't support Dolby Digital set to Off which will play standard audio (PCM)."

    My A/V receiver supports Dolby Digital through both HDMI and toslink. I therefor have the setting set to On under the Dolby Digital option. My HDTV is a 3D ready DLP HDTV and therefor I need the Mitsubishi 3DA-1 3D Checkerboard converter to watch 3D on my HDTV. The 3DA-1 is listed as being supported by DirecTv for 3D.

    When I am not using the 3DA-1 I am able to get Dolby Digital 5.1 through my A/V Receiver using the HDMI connection. However, when I use the 3DA-1 I am limited to 2.0 audio through HDMI on a broadcast that was previously broadcasting 5.1. If DirecTv would allow follow the user selection from the menu rather than the EDID information then myself and others would be able to enjoy Dolby Digital 5.1 through our A/V Receivers using the HDMI connection. I can get 5.1 through the toslink connection but one of the benefits of HDMI is being able to run one cable from your gear for simplification. Additionally, in my case I had to unplug a piece of equipment from a toslink connection on my A/V Receiver in order to be able to plug in my DirecTv HR24-500 into a toslink input on the A/V Receiver.

    Other 3D capable gear allows the user to select the audio configuration. For instance one person told me his TIVO hooked up to cable broadcasts 5.1 over HDMI using a setup involving a 3DA-1 and 3D. If DirecTv would follow the selection made by the customer then this would not be an issue in my opinion.

    On a positive note, I want to think DirecTv for making some changes to the way it broadcasts 3D as several of us are now once again able to watch 3D again. We appreciate Directv listening to its customers and improving its product.
     
  7. Aug 5, 2010 #167 of 233
    DogLover

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    Thanks for the info. I'm still not clear if you are saying that it is outputing PCM 2.0 or Dolby 2.0, but it doesn't really matter if you know that without the converter you are getting Dolby 5.1 through HDMI.

    This actually makes some sense with a situation that I had with my previous TV. It was an old DLP that used a DVI connection. With DVR to AVR to DVI-TV, the audio was not played by the AVR when only HDMI was connected. I also had to use toslink. The AVR manual said that might happen with DVI TVs, so I blamed the AVR. No, I'm wondering if this was an EDID info problem. (I may have never tried setting the DVR to PCM, since I just assumed it was a limitation of the AVR.)
     
  8. Aug 5, 2010 #168 of 233
    Doug Brott

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    (1) many folks, especially those here @ DBSTalk, would accept this dual screen. It's a necessary evil so that 3DTVs work as well as expected.

    (2) many other folks would, in fact, be "scared" by this (rightfully so or not) and would ultimately call DIRECTV asking for it's removal or to "fix" the station. Additionally the content would still be there and (quite frankly) DIRECTV may not have the licensing rights to show the content to non-3D subscribers. This becomes a legal issue as well if that's true (again regardless of "right" or "wrong").

    Long term, I think everyone would agree that TV & AVR vendors as well as DIRECTV getting things fixed to the real standards is the best choice. At some point TVs, AVRs and all other A/V equipment should work with the "real" 3D.

    Things will get better as compatibility increases.
     
  9. Aug 5, 2010 #169 of 233
    Jeremy W

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    That's why they could put up a warning message. Or have a setting buried in the menus somewhere, with a disclaimer when you enable it. I'd even be happy with a search term like they use for 30-second skip. Anything aside from an outright block would be an improvement.
    I'd find it incredibly hard to believe that DirecTV's 3D carriage terms include such language, especially since no other provider has the same limitations. I also can't see why the content providers would care.
     
  10. Aug 5, 2010 #170 of 233
    Doug Brott

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    just a thought .. it may not be an issue.
     
  11. Aug 5, 2010 #171 of 233
    geaux tigers

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    That is why I suggested a secret search term several posts back. Normal DirecTv customers don't use secret search terms but DBStalk / DirecTv customers do. A win - win solution.
     
  12. Aug 5, 2010 #172 of 233
    DarinC

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    People have posted plenty of ways to deal with this, many/most of which DirecTV is already doing in some fashion or another. It could be just like it does when you try to record a 3d show (we don't detect a 3d TV... tune to channel anyway?), it could be handled in the HD resolution screen like 24p (press "-" if you see a see a 3d image), an allow 3d when not detected keyword, etc. This isn't a difficult issue.

    Why do I feel like people are just trying to come up with reasons why it can't/shouldn't be done? :shrug:
     
  13. Aug 6, 2010 #173 of 233
    jacmyoung

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    Well since it appears DirecTV has already made some changes, let's hope we are on our way to a better future:)
     
  14. Aug 6, 2010 #174 of 233
    Tom Robertson

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    :) Ooops! my bad. I've corrected my post:
    Unfortunately, most AVRs apparently [edit] don't know how to pass these frames thru.

    My understanding, from DIRECTV, is that hdmi 1.3 (or 1.3a?) created the VSI frames. That they were not a 1.4 invention. I'll try to check.

    Cheers,
    Tom
     
  15. Aug 6, 2010 #175 of 233
    Doug Brott

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    well rather than back doors, let's start with hardware situations that may be broken

    http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=182213
     
  16. Aug 6, 2010 #176 of 233
    raclevel

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    Now that I think about it I also had an HR20-700 when I saw this. If a way to override the 3d TV check was put into place and this allowed all the HR20s out there to work I would think this would be a huge incentive for DTV to implement one of the suggested solutions. They currently have to replace all those HR20s when a customer adds a 3D TV. And 3D is just now starting to catch on...
     
  17. Aug 6, 2010 #177 of 233
    DarinC

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    My understanding is that the Vendor Specific InfoFrame wasn't defined until 1.4. 1.3 may have had a packet reserved for it, but there was not yet any definition for it. And as per the hdmi spec, any infoframe that is not defined will not be transmitted. If they were defined in CEA-861-D, then it would have been allowed. But as far as I can tell, CEA-861-D still doesn't contain any 3d specs, so the HDMI organization added some in 1.4.
    [/QUOTE]

    That is a good idea. My 3d adapter still hasn't arrived. I'm confident that it won't work through my AVR based on postings by others with similar equipment, but I"ll hold of on posting there until I can confirm first hand.
     
  18. Aug 6, 2010 #178 of 233
    hdtvfan0001

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    I believe you are correct on all those understandings.

    HDMI v1.4, and more so 1.4a, work to pin down those definition requirements.
     
  19. Aug 6, 2010 #179 of 233
    geaux tigers

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    Quote from Darin C:

    "That is a good idea. My 3d adapter still hasn't arrived. I'm confident that it won't work through my AVR based on postings by others with similar equipment, but I"ll hold of on posting there until I can confirm first hand.[/QUOTE]


    My Mitsubishi 3D-A1 3D converter works going through my A/V Receiver using the HDMI connection. However, I only get stereo, 2.0 sound. Mitsubishi put EDID restrictions on its converters where the converter would only work for Mitsubishi HDTVs. They said this was so they would not have to offer support for non Mitsubishi HDTVs but I believe that they did not want Samsung 3D ready DLP owners to benefit from their product. Samsung was the only other company that made 3D ready DLP HDTVs that would be compatible with such a product. Mitsubishi could of required customers to have the serial numbers of their HDTVs ready when calling in if that was their real purpose in my opinion. Don't get me wrong as Samsung is the most culpable as they chose not to support their existing customers.

    Mitsubishi screwed everyone by doing this. In order to use the 3DA-1 officially it has to be connected directly to a Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTV. Unofficially, if you have a Samsung 3D ready DLP or want to use your A/V Receiver then you need to purchase a Gefen HDMI Detective Plus and program the EDID of one of the supported EDIDs into the Gefen.

    However, the sound from HDMI is only 2.0 PCM because DirecTv is using the EDID information to determine what audio format to send out rather than the customers selection from the audio menu from the DirecTv Receiver. The 3D checkerboard signal from the 3DA-1 is compatible with HDMI 1.3 equipment unlike the other 3D signals. Therefore, Mitsubishi screwed its own customers by putting in the EDID checks into the converter because now Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTV owners need to buy a Gefen in order to use their A/V Receiver.

    If DirecTv would use the customers audio selection rather than the EDID information for audio selection then this problem would go away. Others who use a 3DA-1 have indicated that they own other gear that allows the user to determine the audio rather than the EDID so I know this is possible.

    By the way, I am not looking for official support from either Mitsubishi or DirecTv when using these products as I know that it is not officially supported but the fix seems so simple that it sure would be nice for DirecTv to do it. Additionally, I do not see how a fix would impact anyone else negatively.

    Again, I appreciate the changes that DirecTv has made to their 3D Broadcasts so far that has allowed many of us to once again watch 3D.
     
  20. Aug 6, 2010 #180 of 233
    GregLee

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    I'm having a hard time figuring this out. "2.0 sound" would ordinarily refer to Dolby Digital 2.0 sound -- is that what you mean? Or do you mean 2 channel pcm sound?
     

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