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Should you be able to discriminate against religion?

Discussion in 'The OT' started by John Corn, May 1, 2002.

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  1. May 1, 2002 #1 of 19
    John Corn

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    To start off this is the topic of the hour on the Tom Leykis show so that's where I got the idea from. Anyway he says and I agree that religion is a lifestyle decision, and if your religion gets in the way of you working, your employer should be able to fire you. If they are running a company that needs you in sunday mornings and that's when you go to church, they should be able to fire you. What do you think?
     
  2. May 1, 2002 #2 of 19
    RichW

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    I think it is incumbent upon an employer to make a "reasonable accomodation" for a person's religion. Otherwies those hiring managers with a religious bias can get away with illegal discrimination. In the early 1900s, the retail department sore, Marshall Field in Chicago, actually REQUIRED their employess to go to church on Sunday. This effectively barred Jews from working at the store and such rules would be illegal today.

    It is also best that a potential employee tell the employee "I can't work Saturdays" or "I can't work Sunday mornings".
     
  3. May 1, 2002 #3 of 19
    John Corn

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    I only bring this up because an employer can and has been sued before for religious discrimination....and I believe religion is something you choose. You do not choose your race or gender therefor discriminating against a person for that is wrong and rightfully legally so. But if you work for a company and you need time out during the day to pray or something, they should be able to fire you without being sued. I'm sure god understands you need a job more then you need to get fired to pray to him or whatever it is you believe in.
     
  4. May 1, 2002 #4 of 19
    Scott Greczkowski

    Scott Greczkowski Banned User

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    This one hits home (sort of) my wife was just recently hired at a national resturant chain as the manager of one of the resturants.

    She came in to find a place a total mess.

    She has one employee named Hasan who is Muslin who is one of the assistant manager. The guy is for the most part a good worker. However he is also Muslim (nothing wrong with that) and he has a wierd custom of just dropping his work (it could be the middle of a mad rush) to go into the managers office, shut the door and pray.

    It wouldnt be a problem but there is no set time that he does this he just does it when he feel like it (thats what my wife says) and he has left untrained employees running the store while he disapears for 15 20 minutes praying.

    She has tried talking to him about this just trying to get him to at least warn people before he goes away and he got all mad and threatened to sue her and the store for religious descrimination.

    Hes not a bad guy but hes never running things when you need him to be.

    What would you guys do?
     
  5. May 1, 2002 #5 of 19
    TNGTony

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    Well, this guy might sue no matter what you do. But I guarantee you that in muslim countries, they do NOT just close up shop whenever. I know of the Morning and noon prayer. When i was in Istanbul, the city essentially closed down at noon and 5 pm for 15-20 minutes.

    What I'd have your wife do Scott is contact a muslem cleric at the nearest mosque and ask him what the religion requires in the way of daily prayer. I understand that the Muslem religion requres prayer 5 times a day. Once she finds out what the times are, TELL this employee that he can take a prayer break at x times for x length and be sure to clock out for his breaks (if he's hourly). And that way she can schedule around his breaks. This way she has a very quick and ready response to Hakim Sheister when he comes serving the papers. She can quickly prove that she was sensitive to his religious needs and made an effort to accomodate his needs. As long as the parent company of the restaurant doesn't have a fecal accident and cave imideately, there is no way that Hasan (chop) would win.

    Unlike John (the "unknown administrator") I believe you are BORN into a religion. I am Catholic because my Parents raised me as such. I could change religions or drop them, but the beleifs are part of me. Again, REASONABLE accomodation is the order of the day. It is the best way to keep your employees happy. If as a manager, you know that some one needs Fridays or Saturdays or Sundays off due to LEGITAMATE religious convictions, then so be it. Schedule around it whenever possible as a courtesy to the employee. But at the same time, make it VERY clear before the employee is hired what the job requires.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  6. May 1, 2002 #6 of 19
    John Corn

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    Tony, Couple of people gave me a hard time about the Indians losing 21-2 to Anahiem last night.....thats why i changed to the bagman gif. :D
     
  7. May 1, 2002 #7 of 19
    Geronimo

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    While you do indeed CHOOSE your religion that is a choice you have a right to make. As Rich said a "reasonable accomodation" should be made. However if your religious views truly conflict with the duties of the job that is a different matter.

    I have to say though that I don't really think this situation is particularly common.
     
  8. May 1, 2002 #8 of 19

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    That is stupid, I'd fire him.
    Damn good thing he's not a cop or fireman or ambulance driver i.e. in the middle of hot pursuit and he decides to take 15 to minutes for prayer.
    The guy is hiding his laziness behind his religion. Hiding behind his religion and then tries to use the threat of discrimination is pure bull sh-t.
    As far as if your job requires you to work on Sundays or a religious day of worship and you refuse to work that day then I feel that you could and should be fired as long as other employees of other religions are required to work also.
    Discrimination would be if he was not hired because he was a certain religion, If he did not receive all the benefits that others of other religions are entitled to.
    Discrimination would also be if he was required to work on a particular day when others of other religions were not required to work and given the day off. If others are given anything that one person is denied days off, time off , breaks, extra breaks, longer breaks etc then it is discrimination.
    Not the fact that he can't disappear whenever he choses to pray.
    If the guy disappears without notifying others and leaving untrained employees during a mad rush or peak business time I'd tell the guy to hit the bricks and don't come back no mo no mo Hit the road Jack.
    A business is in the business to make money. That requires all employees to be working when the mad rush times do take place.

    If the schedule you are given does not agree with your religion practices and doesn't allow you to attend then you should evaluate that before you ever take the job.
    I have a job that does require me to work on Sunday's which is the day for religious services. I knew that going into the job which I could be required to work any day of the week, rotating schedule , both days and hours.
    As long as others have the same stipulations on their schedule, days off, hours scheduled, breaks etc. then there is no problem at all and cannot be construed as discrimination.

    Scott, If I was your wife, I'd have a talk with him, document exactly what it is she talks to him about, lay the rules down just exactly what she expects. Requiring the same thing of him that other employees are expected to follow and not giving him any special treatment in no way.
    Then I'd let him scream discrimination all he wants.
    Then if he does not follow the rules as has been outlined for him, I'd FIRE HIM.
     
  9. May 1, 2002 #9 of 19
    spanishannouncetable

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    I bet his real religion is worshipping the Marlboro Man, and he consecrates the ceremony by burning a sacred tobacco stick or two :smoking:
     
  10. bryan27

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    Prayer times do change daily for both Muslims and Jews as the times are based on where the sun is in the sky. For example on May 3rd the Sabbath starts locally at 8:03pm and on May 10th the Sabbath starts locally at 8:11pm. Scott I would suggest your wife get a copy of the prayer times for each day, perhaps a search on Muslim Prayer Times.

    Jews are permitted to skip a prayer time, and the skipped prayers can be made-up at the next prayer time. For example you do the Morning prayers before you goto work, but are unable to do the Afternoon prayers because you are working. You can make up the Afternoon prayers after you have said the Evening prayers.

    Contrary to popular belief Jews may work on the Sabbath as long as the job doesn't require performing the 8 types of forbidden work (kindling a fire, cooking, writing, sewing, planting, washing, cutting, smelting). Also if your job is to safe a life or comfort the ill (IE: Doctors, Nurses etc...) then you are permitted to perform the 8 types of forbidden work on the Sabbath.
     
  11. STXJim

    STXJim Legend in my own mind

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    If you apply for a job and are told that you must be able to work whenever you are needed. Meaning it might be any day of the week.
    You know your religion requires you to pray and stay at home on Sat or Sun or whenever.
    You take the job anyway because you need a job.
    Then your boss tells you that you have to work those days.
    Too bad, so sad.........
    You agreed to work those days when you were hired.
    You can't work; No job!!!!!!!!!
    What really sucks is the scumbags using the 'religious excuse' just to take a day off here and there.
    Those folks WILL burn in hell.
    They will learn, real quick, that blasphemy is a bitch!
     
  12. TNGTony

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  13. bryan27

    bryan27 DBSTalk E* Spot Beam Guru

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    Yep Tony, it is complicated. Here is one for the Jewish Prayer times:

    http://www.kashrut.com/zemanim/

    I usually combine the Sunrise,Sh'ma, & T'feilah when I wake up (this is permissible). The Mincha is the Afternoon prayers the Earliest it can be said today is 1:55pm, it can also be said at 5:25pm or 6:52. This evening starts the Sabbath so Candle Lighting is at 8:03pm and The Evening Shabbat prayers begin at 8:06pm.

    It is common to say the afternoon prayers late on Friday (or any day of the week for that matter) to go right from the afternoon prayers to the evening prayers IE: Today at 6:52, when your done with Afternoon it is time for Candle Lighting 8:03, then right into the Evening Shabbat prayers, then at 9:03 have your Shabbat evening meal.
     
  14. Bogy

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    Bryan, I have a hard time keeping track of all those times, so I'm glad Paul recommended an easier schedule for when to pray:
    1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing. :D :rolleyes: :angel:
    Now if I thought all Christians were really doing this I would be really happy.
     
  15. Chris Freeland

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    As a Seventh Day Adventist, we observe the Sabbath similar to are Jewish friends, from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, however we do not have a official list of do’s and don’ts for Sabbath observance. In general we do not buy or sell on the Sabbath and consider it appropriate to work as Policeman, Fireman, Nurse, Doctor etc. We consider the Sabbath a 24-hour day that God set aside for us to spend time with God and our Family. In the past I have turned down jobs that would require me to work Friday nights or Saturday because I feel it is important to place God first in my life. I have never taken any potential employers to court over this issue because this is not my way of handling things. I believe employers should do their best to make accommodation for employees to be able to take off a day or a few hours to satisfy their religious convictions, there are some things more important then the all mighty dollar and I think it will pay off for them in the long run. I think for the most part employers will find people that are willing to stand up for their religious convictions will work hard for their employer.
     
  16. Bogy

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    It is a requirement of my job that I work on Sunday. In fact I can get by not working any other day of the week, but my employment would end very quickly if I refused to work on Sunday. And yet, I consider myself a person of deep faith and so are most of my employers. :D Of course then again, I don't really consider what I do "work," even though I am exhausted by the time I am done with two services. :angel:
     
  17. Chris Freeland

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    I just wanted to add to my previous post that it’s a two way street. If an employer does make accommodations for an employee, the employee should be willing to make up the time in other ways.
     
  18. Chris Freeland

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    Yes Bogi I agree. Even though I am not a pastor I do know the pastors and many others in my denomination work very hard on the Sabbath doing Gods work ;).
     
  19. Rage

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    Bogi, so that's what happened to you. You got fat and lazy because you only work one day a week. :lol:
     
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