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Discussion in 'DIRECTV General Discussion' started by Sixto, Jul 27, 2008.
By folks here, do you mean me? :lol:
I guess it just comes down to this: is this really something to fret over?
Many in the know are saying things are fine. History has shown that this silence period is *normal*. For whatever reason (does it really matter "why"?), TLE's are routinely not updated at about this same time in the life of D*'s D1x satellites. And each time, the bird has appeared where it needed to.
Time to go outside and enjoy the real world. After all, it's in HD and 3D...and available NOW!
It might be better to release something that says TLE 170 is invalid, but I guess they don't. If they did you have to get the people who redistribute the data to mark theirs, too. It apparently just isn't done that way. The data just gets stale when it is no longer valid & there can be no reasonably accurate TLE computed to replace it.
A body under acceleration simply cannot be characterized with a TLE. A TLE isn't meant to (just) tell you where something is, it is meant to predict where it will be. But a TLE doesn't have enough fields to allow any reasonable prediction to be made if the object is undergoing acceleration from propulsion.
Better none than wrong.
I think I read that they take several observations (three?) to compute a TLE and I assume they do this over some period of time. If that's right they then would have to feed this into an algorithm to solve the equations to come up with the TLE that would produce those observations. If all of what I said just happens to be correct I don't see how the algorithm could come up with anything at all for a new TLE, even an approximation.
Even if they could they would have to see hallmark of the propulsion and mark the TLE so that others would know that it wasn't up to the usual standards of accuracy. There's no field in a TLE format for that.
I wish I could find what I read again, but I looked for it this morning and couldn't find it.
I am confused. You said earlier that there are industry methods that we don't know about that they use to coordinate satellite movements. That makes sense. It seems that those methods would be more accurate and therefore the industry standard. Why would they use an inaccurate TLE then?
One more time: The coordination goes on between parties known or likely to be affected. The TLEs that are released are not (intentionally) inaccurate. It was a hypothetical situation, stemming from the discussion of why TLEs are not released for long periods of time during extended propulsive events.
IF an inaccurate data set was released and used by someone as the basis for the assumption that they are unaffected, that would be the problem.
Seems logical to me.
Why put out a TLE that shows something somewhere - when it really isn't there. Or at least not there now.
You are a more patient man than I am. When people who are guessing about a topic which I have knowledge in, want to debate and argue with me, I tend to walk away and leave them with no information. Since they have no knowledge to begin with, and were simply using MY knowledge to create arguments with me - they are left to sit quietly alone having learned nothing and gained nothing. Its a sad place for them to be.
You made something up and got called on it. Sorry.
TLEs won't be released during a move because they are inaccurate vs an old TLE that is certainly inaccurate if D12 isn't at 76. The idea that releasing a TLE showing movement would be bad because another satellite operator may use that TLE to predict movement and conflict with D12s moves?
BTW: Unless you're breaking a rule of the forum I'm just another poster here.
OK, I can't take it anymore. I have been following this thread for it seems like forever. I want to thank all of you for making my day every time I read this thread. This is some really good stuff. What do I think about D12? It does not matter to me. If it happens it happens, if it don't it don't. I came from the era of watching BW TV and my dad telling me to get up and change the channel. What I have now with D* is like heaven. I hope it is going to be a suprise. One day I will get home and BOOM, more HD. Wooo Hooo
I made up a hypothetical scenario that is all too plausible. Your (continued) inability or refusal to comprehend that is no longer my concern.
That is very good to know.
Oh man, you are SO right.....
You know, years from now, when the next satellite is launched, I would appreciate some one putting up a link to this archived thread.
I will think back to the last few weeks of the D12 thread, and take a hammer and hit myself in the head with it a few times. I'll feel the same way I do now, but I won't have wasted as much time getting there.
But at the risk of sounding positive and thereby getting attacked by the multitudes, I would like to thank Sixto for starting this thread, working on it so hard with little thanks from so many, and spending the time to provide us with real information. I barely have time to watch my friggin Directv between work and my first grader, but he's managed to search out and provide great information for those of us perverted enough to think of DBS as a hobby. You, sir, are further proof that no good deed goes unpunished....
Are we there yet?
Is it Memorial Day yet?
Yes they all use the XIPS system. All three are almost identical. There are minor differences in how the spots are aimed and D11 has the experimental BSS package it tested and D12 has 4 bss spots it will use.
When you entered the hypothetical you exited your safe world of "I'm an expert, trust me" and entered the level playing field of "lets be logical together".
Your personal attacks being ignored for the moment, your hypothetical was incorrect as any satellite operator who would look at a "moving" TLE and assume it was safe would be more likely to look at a "parked" TLE and assume it was safe. You're asking us to assume that satellite operators assume.
I agree with your claim that the operators coordinate with each other but I disagree with the hypothetical that any reasonable satellite operator would look at a "moving" TLE and assume their move would be safe without contacting the operator of the "moving" satellite for more information.
And as far as the comparisons to D10 and D11 ...
Were either of those satellites launched to and tested at an orbital location 27 degrees away from the final location? It would probably be better to compare the D12 move to a satellite that has moved that far than to D10 or D11. Especially if you can find another XIPS powered move as a comparison.
There is no reason to withheld TLE.
Well... perhaps just one: the D sats using military technology for rapid movements what other warheads utilize.
You sure have been fanning the flames a lot lately. That's unfortunate. I don't see Stuart, Doug, Tom, or Sixto doing that.