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Sub-zero temps in Chicago; record cold/snow in NW; blizzard warnings--Global Warming?

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Lord Vader, Dec 21, 2008.

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  1. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Some things worth noting about the "centuries of data"...

    There wasn't even a "thermometer" until sometime around 1650 or so (give or take), and back then it was inaccurate, inconsistent, and really only good for telling you if it was getting hotter or cooler but no measure of how much so.

    Not until the early 1700s when Fahrenheit made the first mercury-thermometer and standardized a scale did we even have an ability to take measures of temperature and have an "international" standard to compare.

    At this time in the world, there were still places we had not been and certainly no one was going around recording lots of weather/temperature data all over the world.

    Simply put, there is no "centuries of data" to speak of. Modern weather forecasting really happened during my lifetime (and I'm not 40 yet)... so once you get back around 100 years or so, such data is not entirely reliable nor widespread as it was not being taken for the purpose of projecting global anything.
     
  2. Cholly

    Cholly Old Guys Rule! DBSTalk Club

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    Much of the data relative to global climate change is indeed centuries old -- specifically, core samples of ice noted in places as diverse as the Arctic, Antarctic and Pacific Northwest. I think it would be helpful if people would bother to watch the programs on PBS and the Discovery channel relative to climate change, rather than accepting blindly the opinions of those who are in denial (or for that matter, blindly accept the concept of climate change). Just because we get early season cold snaps or snowstorms does not mean that global warming is non existent. When looking at the glacial melt in Greenland, scientists used carbon dating to determine the age of ice that was retreating.
     
  3. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    Math, statistics and science are intertwined. I have spent my life working in various fields of science (primarily rocket science) which would not exist without math and statistics. None of this was based on faith as some here have suggested. Faith is defined by Webster as "firm belief in something for which no proof exists." That is religion and not science. Nothing in math, statistics or science is based on faith for without proof there is no belief. The media may use the term 'scientists think' this or that about global warming but no scientist 'believes' until proof in in available
     
  4. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Unfortunately, we are dealing with people and their perceptions.

    History is filled with descriptions of truth being ignored or ridiculed when unpopular... Scientists who suggested that the earth was not the center of the universe (or even our solar system) were threatened with death if they did not recant. The popular theory of the time was counter to provable science, and yet popular theory won out for a time.

    So... is global climate change actual science? Or is it popular theory?

    Only time will tell. Perhaps those who are against it are using actual science, but being ignored by those who want to push today's popular theory.

    I'm reminded of the comedian who once had interesting commentary about the "9 out of 10 doctors recommend product xxx" The commentary was, essentially to ask so what about doctor #10? Was he not an expert? In which case, why was he on the panel in the first place? If he was an expert with a valid opinion, then why is his dissenting opinion any less valid than the 9 others?

    The lesson... being in the majority doesn't make you right, nor does being in the minority make you wrong.
     
  5. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    Less than one week ago we had a HIGH temperature of 7* F. We had wind chills of 40 below zero. Tuesday we had several inches of snow. Wednesday we had several inches of snow. Overnight Thursday/Friday we had a half inch of ice, closing down many roads and even one major expressway.

    And now a TORNADO WATCH has just been issued effective until 7:00 p.m. CST for the entire Chicago Metropolitan area (there's already one issued for much of central Illinois and east central Missouri). Severe thunderstorms are breaking out in central Illinois right now, with a tornado warning having been issued there as well.

    Must be the "Global Warming," huh? ;)
     
  6. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    As I stated above. We had record high temps for December the last couple days but neither that nor your record cold establishes a trend toward warming or cooling. There is always a problem when people attempt to use short term weather patterns to predict long term results.
     
  7. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    I know, which is why my post was meant to be a bit sarcastic.

    I'll tell you this much: there has been one disturbing trend: our "springs" have been virtually nonexistent. Our winters each year have lasted longer and longer, and it has really irritated us. We used to be able to count on pretty decent weather at least by the time April rolled around, but now even that month and the first half of May has sucked. We've had snow well into May each of the last few years, and most days the highs have been well below normal. In short, our winters here last through May, which is not exactly a warming trend.
     
  8. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    You can solve that all by moving south. We've had longer and hotter than usual summers, extended spring and fall seasons and winter amounts to just a few days. I haven't seen a freezing night in several years.

    Sounds like Global Climate Change to me.
     
  9. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    I never knew that two areas of the country equate to "Global" Climate Change.
     
  10. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Unless of course YOU are doing it ... :rolleyes:
    See here for a Google search.

    "Freezing Temperatures Bring Ice To East Texas Roads & Overpasses" just two weeks ago.
    Several hits on that search reflect overnight freezing in Texas.

    Over what period of time are your observations? If it is less than your lifetime it is short term, isn't it?
     
  11. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    Didn't say that it did. I'm just stating that cold in your area is not an indication that global climate change theory is faulty.
     
  12. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    :sure: Texas is a big state. It didn't freeze in our area although it did get down into the upper 30's. That is quite normal for a few days every winter and not at all unusual. It was more unusual to have temperatures near 80 this week, a couple of those days being record warmth.

    And I had to mow the lawn today.

    My personal observations would be for over 60 years. Scientific studies have been able to determine conditions for thousands of years. Even that is short time but we are discussing short time. What happened during the time of the dinosaurs is not relevant to what is happening now. Our concern is what has happened the past few hundred years and during the next few hundred. The change we need to observe is the accelerated change in world temperature during the past few decades which is anticipated to continue into the future due to man's contribution to the environment. There is little disagreement among scientists that the earth is warming. The only dispute that exists is to what extent man has an effect. If man has a large effect we need to do something to slow that effect. If man has nothing to do with it then we need to find a way to cope with the changes.
     
  13. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Once again, your short term memory - whether two weeks or 60 years - is not scientific evidence.
    You demand more of others ... the least you can do is honor it yourself.
     
  14. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    Once again you twist what I have said. I made no claim that my 60 years is the scientific evidence proving anything. I stated that scientists have 1000's of years of evidence to prove the theory. If all science relied on each individual proving every theory, there would be proof of very little. Maybe that is how you feel about science. If you cannot understand the proof and witness the evidence first hand, you choose not to believe. If that is the case, there is nothing I can do short of inventing time travel to take you to the future. Maybe that is the only way to convince you and others.

    What have I demanded of anyone else? You may chose not to accept modern scientific theory no matter how much proof there is but you have absolutely zero evidence to support that argument. You deny that accepted scientific data is valid simply because you do not want to accept it yourself. Stating that you do not believe in a theory does not disprove the theory unless you can prove that. I have chosen to accept the theory because most experts in the field have agreed the data is valid and proves the theory.
     
  15. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Just what you said above:
    And yet you introduce your alleged lack of freezing temperatures in your area, discounting multiple verified reports of said temperatures in the same state, and submit your limited memory as evidence.
    Sounds like you want a different level of proof from those who disagree with you.

    Anyways ... it seems that you have failed to meet the challenge and come up with something that wasn't said in last year's "Global Warming" thread ... so unless you can come up with something NEW it is time for you to go back to CEs and the other reasons you are on our forum and for the rest of us to go back to our normal discussions.

    We don't share your faith in Global Warming "science". You're not going to convince anyone with double standards and repeating last year's thread.
     
  16. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    James, should we expect another thread next year when the weather once again is cold and brutal when and where it shouldn't be? :p
     
  17. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    We can joke all you like ... just don't take it too seriously.

    The bottom line is that we are a DBS site ... when people get bound up over non-DBS topics it is time for us to get back to the reason the site is here. DBS.
     
  18. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    I know; hence this thread being in the "OT" section.

    BTW, I have nothing against those who are proponents of science. I love science stuff for the most part. It has its purpose. I just find it laughable that there are those who are trying to scare people into thinking that Man is altering our planet's climate and that if we don't stop it we're doomed. There just isn't evidence to accurately support this.

    I'm one who does his part to recycle, to not waste things and what not, but not because I believe it'll keep the oceans' temperatures from rising; rather, because I just think it's the right thing to do. However, I get pissed when I'm made to feel guilty that my very existence here is damaging to the planet.

    Earth has survived long before humans' arrival; it will survive long after our departure. We won't have any impact on her.
     
  19. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    That was the late, great George Carlin's take on things. That we are arrogant if we think we will have that kind of control.

    He also went on to say that ultimately our purpose was probably to create something that the earth needed that wasn't here before... such as plastic :) The earth wanted plastic, so it nurtured humans to create it... after that, we aren't much use to the planet anymore ;)
     
  20. Richard King

    Richard King Hall Of Fame

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...ar-man-made-global-warming-was-disproved.html
    2008 was the year man-made global warming was disproved
    Looking back over my columns of the past 12 months, one of their major themes was neatly encapsulated by two recent items from The Daily Telegraph.
    More....

    I haven't read the whole thing, and don't have time now, but it looks like an interesting article.
     
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