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SWM conversion LUMPY

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by lugnutathome, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    SO the SWM2 port is the equivalent of the SWM1 port then?

    If I could scrounge up 2 terminating resistors I could see moving the 191 and 143 off onto port 2 direct with no other changes to the splitters. I assume if capped an 8 way uses no more signal level than it's smaller sized brethren?

    Don "Hmmm" Bolton
     
  2. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Here's where the problem seem to be:
    SWM output -31 dBm.
    8-way splitter loss = -15.5 dB
    output power = -46 dBm

    The receiver "needs" -54 dBm

    123' RG6 ≈ -11 dB
    143' RG6 ≈ -12 dB
    191' RG6 ≈ -16.5 dB

    "So" the receiver input:
    123' ≈ -46 dBm [OK]
    191' ≈ -63 dBm [NOT OK]
     
  3. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    the #2 SWM output has a termination [chained] to them.

    "Capping" the unused outputs of the 8-way doesn't drop the output levels to the other ports.

    A 2-way costs about 6 dB
    A 4-way costs about 11 dB
    A 8-way costs about 15.5 dB
     
  4. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    Does the 8 way loss occur in total even if all ports are not used?

    My H21 on the end of the 191 feet seems fine. I had issues at the 123 ft, 143 ft and am still having them at 83 ft.

    I'm using the better RG cable BTW the one with the least loss. When HD forced me to separate terrestrial from sat, I had the better stuff run. (model number escapes me as that was so 4 years ago)...:)

    I'm thinking the 143 and 123 to SWM2 direct on the 2 switches and then seeing what that does.

    Don "too bad these parts weren't just down at the ACE hardware" Bolton


     
  5. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Tight bends can increase loss on any cable, so "through the net" the best I can do is "theoretical" system losses.
    Getting the installer to measure actual loss and more important the carrier to noise [CNR] at each receiver is when "you'll know" what's going on.
     
  6. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    I would use a terminator at all unused ports on the splitter. First off THANK YOU for digging so deep into this with me! I'm going to have to do something else today as this is chafing me and I need a "victory" :(

    I looked at the idea of using a SWM2 port directly and I'm out of line length to get there without reworking the whole component deployment. Just not on my patience meter today. I've got functioning receivers in all but the "newly added" office which is where I have the errant HR20 700. All other receivers appear fine including the other what I thought bricked HR20 which I put up in the place where the bricked H21 was and its working fine.

    So I have at least the same deployment as prior with even one extra DVR. I may try putting the brick up in the room that seemed to fix the other HR20 and see if it suddenly behaves properly. Not going to hold my breath on that but. Can't be any more screwy than what hasn't worked so far.

    Again a BIG thank you for stepping through this with me! I'm thinking smaller grain splitters and using both ports going forward.

    I did read the cable housing and it is an RG6 although I was under the impression it had about 1/2 the signal loss over standard RG6.

    Don "time to walk the dogs, mow the grass and such" Bolton

     
  7. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    "No way".
    The most would be a dB or so, over 100'.
    It would have to be RG11 to be that good.

    Take your "problem child" receiver to the short cable location and see what it does there. That should rule out the cables losses as the problem.
     
  8. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    Yeah RG11. Thats what I ordered... Different contractor than current.

    Don "great" Bolton

     
  9. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    Well dogs walked, lawns mowed, section of fence ripped out. Destruction of property helped my attitude:grin:

    I took the 83 ft run that has been plaguing me for testing the HR20s and went direct to the SWM2 port. To accomplish this I used a short cable run and an in line coupler to test. Symptoms are similar but not quite as bad.

    Should I have brought offline all devices on that SWM module as part of doing this?

    The HR20 works fine in the other room upon swapping and the DVR from there wouldn't boot here. That room is also on the other SWM8. Signal comes and goes. When present it's hot but it just suddenly drops to 0. Am I perhaps looking at a bad SWM8 module?

    It's such that I cannot get a firmware download (should have rolled back when I had it in the other room and operating just to see)

    Using the SWM2 port doesn't really help though to be sure an in line coupler probably loses a lot of the signal. Especially an old coupler thats been in my coax parts bin since likely the mid eighties. Least I found several terminating resistors so I can offline this run till we can fix this.

    Unless someone tells me I should have powered off all and sequentially brought back online post this change to the SWM2 port, I'm calling it a dead horse till my installer returns with smaller splitters.

    He emailed me today with a plan to use both SWM1 and SWM2 ports and the deployment would end up with balanced cumulative footage in the 220 ft range for all ports.

    Probably a week for him to get parts unless he has the small stuff in his parts bins.

    Thanks again for all the help. I hate leaving things unresolved but short of reinstalling everything myself I'm left with no other options.

    Don "time to use and enjoy what is working and forget about it" Bolton
     
  10. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The barrel may not be that lossy.
    If you've got one cable run that is being troublesome, it may be a bad/lossy run.
    SWMs aren't known to "be bad".
    "Signal comes and goes. When present it's hot but it just suddenly drops to 0." kind of sounds more like a cable.
     
  11. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    I would agree but the HR23 that I added as part of this upgrade project worked here on this run perfectly. I was having this same issue in my wife's den (123ft) and in the master bedroom (143 ft)(both HR20-700s) I bought her a new HR22, moved the HR23 up to the bedroom and have been using the office (83ft) run as I can toggle between the computer DVI port and the HDMI port to test and check with this group as well as e-harass my installer.

    Both the HR22 and 23 work just fine where the HR20s first misbehaved. These were the household workhorse machines. The MB would be on all night after the TV would go to sleep. And her Den TV ran constantly day and night.

    Tired machines? HR20 architecture not as robust for SWM? my other 2 HR20s are fine at 83ft and 41 ft but they are also on the other SM8 module. BUT, The systems that are on this SWM module (other than those 2 HR20s work just fine). The fussy HR20s work fine in a guest bedroom at 44ft (also the other SWM module) but flame out on this port like they did in their original locations.

    Don "It just don't add up" Bolton

     
  12. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The HR20s should work fine with SWM.
    It was the H20s that came out before and not all worked as well has they should on SWM.
    If you can't get it/them to work on the short cable runs, where other receivers are working fine, then it/they may be the problem.
    Each receiver might have a slightly different sensitivity as this is common, but it doesn't sound like this is your problem.
     
  13. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    Just a few thoughts...

    Your wasting your time trying to "balance" cable lengths on each SWiM. They don't care.

    As far as the line working on the legacy setup but not the SWiM. Has anyone check to see if the suspect cables are passing the 2.3mhz LF comm signal? If that isn't getting passed, it's not going to work.
     
  14. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The SWMs don't but the receivers want their power levels within range, so longer runs off smaller splitters makes sense and shorter runs off larger splitters works.
     
  15. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    True, but trying to match up total lengths between the 2 are a fools errand.
     
  16. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    I'll ask that one. But as I said before newer equipment woks on the drops just fine...

     
  17. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    :lol: but but my TPs are three points lower on.... :lol:
     
  18. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    Below is the text I forwarded to my installer tonight. It appears SWM8 "B" in my install is the culprit and it is only effecting my HR20 700 DVRs. It hit me that both HR20s were bad news in any room on SWM "B" so I swapped with a good location on "A" and the problem moved.

    So the SWM8 has enough gas to power te newer receivers just fine but not my old hags apparently:confused:

    Thanks again for all the help!

    Sent to my installer ............................

    I tried going to the second port using a barrel connector in line to reach without ripping apart the bundle. NO JOY! I placed the DVR in the Room with a moose, works fine, rolled back firmware to eliminate that as issue moved back to office, Still dorked.

    SO I moved the splitter end of the two rooms so that the office was in the Room with a moose slot and the moose was in the old office slot.

    Office DVR works fine! Moose DVR is now a brick!

    So given the behavior stays with SWM8 "B" regardless of if I use SWM2 or the 8 way I am concluding the SWM8 module known as "B" is sub par. (this is the SWM that connects to the dotted line side for power on the Holland STS-2 splitters from the power inserter/polarity locker module.

    I checked the cable ends prior to this switch for something amiss. What finally hit me is that ANY of the HR20 DVRs worked fine on SWM8 "A" but always were bogus on SWM8 "B" (regardless of location in the home! (remember we had these issues in the Master Bedroom and Romper Room and I kept having the same in office space).

    So either the power driving "B" is wrong or that SWM8 is not 100%.

    Signal is erratic sometimes its fat like it should be a moment later its at 0. Unsure if the issue is at the Holland splitters connection or in the module itself. It has enough for the HR22 and HR23 (as well as an H21) to function but the older HR20 units do not get what they need from it.

    Don "and that's the rumors behind the news" Bolton
     
  19. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    Do any receivers on the "bad" SWM work?

    Any chance of some pics of your setup.
     
  20. lugnutathome

    lugnutathome Hall Of Fame

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    VOS's JPG is pretty much an accurate pic in reality. There is 4 two way splitters off his diagram to feed the 2 SWM8 modules which feed into 8 way splitters. Lots of terminating resistors :eek2:

    Yes there is an HR22, an HR23 and an H21 (plus the HR20 that is the current brick). I had had the other H21 on there on the 191 ft length too and it worked fine on that module.

    My observation has been that the 2 HR20s work fine on the other SWM module but not on the "bad" one. Older equipment? The fact that they ran for years on a SPAUN powered multiswitch? although I've 2 others of the same vintage (bought them all within a 2 week period) on the "good" switch that are just fine and I've tested the 2 "bad" DVRs in 4 different room locations off the "bad" SWM module. And 2 different locations from the "good" module. Results are consistent and 100% reproducible. They work fine on one SWM but not the other. Regardless of line lengths involved. Why the H2 boxes and the HR22/23 units work fine on that switch is beyond me.

    The fact remains however that switch B is a hostile environment for my HR20 DVRs:(

    Don "one of life's great mysteries" Bolton

     

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