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the need to get one's own house in order...

Discussion in 'The OT' started by jrjcd, May 12, 2004.

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  1. jrjcd

    jrjcd Arcane Movie Trivia King DBSTalk Gold Club

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    ....the images of the american berg getting decapitated is chilling and sickening-it really angers me....BUT, up until those photos came out, i felt we had a moral edge on these guys...unfortunately, we have proven to the world that we can be as savage and animalistic as they can be and you know what????we SHOULD be better-it doesn't matter what the other team does-and i personally don't care if this sounds pollyannish-but we have a moral and ethical duty to be better. It's hard for me to not at least understand why those is foriegn countries hate us, easpecially when we act in such an abusive and uncalled for way-we have a responsibilty as a nation to be the ideal the world looks up to and, at least for the moment, we have proven that we can grovel in the mud with the best of them. Because the iraqis drag and burn their prisoners in the streets does NOT give us the right to act accordingly. I don't think kerry is the answer, but it's getting almost impossible to justify a bush reelection either.
     
  2. Bogy

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    We don't seem to want the world to look up to us as a model, we just want them to cower in fear because we are bigger and meaner than they are.
     
  3. tonyp56

    tonyp56 Godfather

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    That was the whole point for us to go to Iraq, we were supposed to be delivering democracy, rescue Iraqi's from there evil president, and of course, stop Iraq from using or making anymore of there WMD. Well at the very least we are now 1-2, if not 0-3, it looks like there is no way of Iraq ever being a democracy, think about it this way, Shiites are the majority, if there is one election for one person, the numbers tell you there will be a Shiites that is elected, which I think would be the same type of government that’s in Iran. Second, there have been no WMD found, (am I saying its Bush’s entire fault, NO, the rest of the world believed there would be WMD in Iraq too!) Thirdly, to save Iraqi's from torture chambers, rape rooms, etc. that the Bush Admin. Told us was one of the reasons for going to war with Iraq. (I have to state this before I talk about this, everyone that serves or has served in the military has my respect and a big thank you, also I realize for every bad seed, there is thousands,(130,000 +) that do there job without being involved in this scandal.) All I will say about the abuses is this, the pictures say a thousand words, and that doesn't look like the message we want to be sending to the world.
    This is only my opinion; everyone has the right to disagree with me, and vice versa, after all this is the United States!
     
  4. Danny R

    Danny R Goblin the Pug DBSTalk Gold Club

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    All I will say about the abuses is this, the pictures say a thousand words

    You can say that again. Its been shown we didn't take the abuse seriously (the Red Cross had told us repeatedly that abuse was taking place) until pictures of it came to light.
     
  5. lee635

    lee635 Hall Of Fame

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    Look for cameras to be banned from areas of conflict. Military will start confiscating cameras from other military personnel and contractors.

    From the UN:

    "IRAQ: ANNAN HORRIFIED BY HOSTAGE'S MURDER AND USE AS 'PUBLIC SPECTACLE'

    United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan today condemned the brutal execution of a civilian hostage in Iraq recently, which was captured on videotape and broadcast worldwide Tuesday.

    "He was horrified by the gruesome murder of a civilian hostage…and was particularly disturbed by the use of this killing as a public spectacle," the Secretary-General's spokesman Fred Eckhard said in response to a question about hostage Nick Berg, who was beheaded by his hooded captors.

    "He extends his deepest condolences to the family of the victim and can only image how they must be feeling," Mr. Eckhard added.

    The Secretary-General condemned all killings of innocent civilians in Iraq, "as he condemns all abuse of all prisoners and other violations of international humanitarian law," the spokesman said.

    "Now more than ever he once again appeals to all parties to adhere strictly to the fundamental precepts of human rights and principles of international humanitarian law," Mr. Eckhard said."
     
  6. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Banned User

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    According to Donald Rumsfield, he ignored the IRC reports he was presented with for months because they were just words, they didn't mean anything (in his opinion). It wasn't until the pictures were published that he finally took notice. He didn't see the point in telling anyone else like Cheney or Bush about them until it became a national disgrace.
     
  7. Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    The...
    We never had the moral "high ground" In the eyes of the world. This country is just as decadent as other countries. The only high ground we can claim is the value we place on human life and our determination to live in peace with liberty.


    Again, apple and oranges. So we embarrassed, humiliated and photographed a few of the bad guys, most being murderers and terrorists. Of course it was wrong, but those crazy-ass irredeemable psychotic Islamic terrorist f--kers torture, shoot, decapitate, burn, rape, sodomize and hang innocent, non-combatant American civilians as well as rape, sodomize, shoot and bomb 'their own people', especially Muslim women and children, both boys and girls. They place no value whatsoever on human life, including their own, and you think that is comparable?
     
  8. Bogy

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    Upon what do you place your assessment that the men in the pictures were "bad guys?" They had no trials, in many cases charges had not even been brought against them, and many have been released in the intervening months with the recognition that they had been mistakenly detained.
     
  9. JM Anthony

    JM Anthony Child of the 60's DBSTalk Gold Club

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    I don't think your reasoning washes, no matter how you look at it. As the leader of the free world, we should always lead by example, no matter where we are, no matter what the conditions. We couldn't have given those whacko terrorists a better commercial for their cause than this latest escapade. I've also got to believe that some percentage of the detainees were innocent.
     
  10. freakmonkey

    freakmonkey Banned User

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    As far as I know POW's are not entitled to trials. People have made up their minds that th US forces are the bad guys and in the wrong. For example what were the context of the photos they are only a snap shot and alot of info is missing. Are any of us versed in the interrogation techniques that we have to use to demoralize and humiliate the enemy. These men are being treated better by us than how Saddam would have treated them had they been his prisoners. We don't know the whole story of those photos but I can think of no better way to break an Arabs spirit than to humiliate him in front of women. To be subject to taking orderes from women. They must be hating life and I am glad for them. At lest they are still alive and have not lost their heads in our care.
     
  11. Bogy

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    You have jumped to the conclusion that because they were in prison these guys must be that bad guys. The U.S. has decided to call any Iraqi they decide to detain a POW. They don't have to be wearing a uniform, they don't have to have a weapon, they just have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and be picked up. As I said, many of these innocent men have since been released. So now we need to break the spirit of all Arab men just for being Arabs. I'm sure they are all jumping at the chance to be part of a Democracy now. POWs may not get trials, but they are supposed to be protected under the Geneva Convention. At least it used to be that America wasn't to good to observe such things.
     
  12. RichW

    RichW Hall Of Fame/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    I don't know how ANYONE can condone the mistreatment of POWs. No one in the adminstration defends it. Rush Limburger does, but he is a strung out druggie.

    My only problem is that I don't think all the people involved will be punished. The lower level grunts will become scapegoats. The reservists will be called incompetant. But supposedly we have CIA operatives thoughout all these facilities. You can't tell me that these atrocities were done without their knowledge. I suspect they were done under their direction. The only other conclusion to be reached is that the CIA was ignorant and stupid.
     
  13. mainedish

    mainedish Hall Of Fame

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    You are all attacking our men and woman in uniform instead of the few who did it. I guess some of you never served our country. A few bad apples, thats all.
     
  14. freakmonkey

    freakmonkey Banned User

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    Unfortunately there is no Geneva Convention being followed by Islamic terrorists. Nick Bergs Geneva Convention rights were severed along with his head.
     
  15. Bogy

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    Rich, what a choice. The CIA has either broken International Law, or they are ignorant and stupid. Decisions, decisions. So far, its to close to call.
     
  16. Bogy

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    Nick Berg was not a POW. Which is beside the point. We are the ones who are claiming that democracy is better, that we follow rules and are more moral than Saddam. Unfortunately, this is just another example of what we have seen from day 1 of the Bush Administration. Its no wonder that those representing us feel no need to follow the Geneva Convention. Bush has made it clear from the very beginning that he and his administration have no regard for international law. More treaties, agreements, accords, and laws have been broken over the past 3 and a half years that have stood for 20, 30, 40 and more years. The Geneva Conventions are just the latest in a long line. If Bush himself did not specifically say, "Ignore the Geneva Conventions" his actions during his presidency have made it very clear that the U.S. Empire is above international law.

    BTW freakmonkey, do your parents know you are on the computer again?
     
  17. Bogy

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    Those bad apples are representing the entire military, which is why most of them are mad as hell at them. Including my secretary, a recently retired AF Master Sargeant. What most of us want to know is just how high up the barrel is rotten, and did it start rotting from the top down, or from the bottom up. Or are you afraid to find out?
     
  18. Timco

    Timco Woof! DBSTalk Gold Club

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    A few bad apples.... Well I guess the reverse is also true. The men who killed Nick Berg were just a a few bad apples too. They don't represent the Islamic people either.
     
  19. Ray_Clum

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    Stupidity and ignorance is not an excuse, otherwise OJ would have just said "Judge Ito, I did kill them both, but I didn't think that the knife was sharp enough to break through the skin"
     
  20. mainedish

    mainedish Hall Of Fame

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    No, they represent terrorist .
     
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