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The official "ask veryoldschool" thread

136K views 823 replies 136 participants last post by  jpray72 
#1 ·
Folks,

As many of you know we have a great asset in "veryoldschool", or VOS for short. He's forgotten more about RF and connectivity than many of us will ever learn.

I'd like to start by thanking him for his immense service to this forum, and I'd like to start an official thread for the many questions you all have for him about connected home, whole home viewing, or anything DIRECTV related.

Please keep to topic and if you have a question, please read on to see if it's been answered.

Thanks!
 
#727 ·
Hi I was hoping to find this information on DBS talk but havnt been able to come up with the correct search string. :)

I am looking for what symbols can be entered on a hr44 ro hddvr when doing a wpa password with the DASH key.
 
#728 ·
Hey VOS- I got a couple of questions

First, I am not seeing any issues except the error when I run a system test.

The error that I get is a network distribution error. I've gone into the coax network test (guide + right arrow) on my 34-700. And gives me numbers that I believe are high ( in the node test)

The CCK and the HR24-500 are both -50 & -51. All of the remainder are between -43 & -47 with the exception of one that is at -23.

The one at -23 is an HR24-500. All of the STB's show the network distribution error with the exception of an HR22-100 (phy of -43). All other receivers are HR24-500's plus one 34.

Within the last month or two, DTV rewired my hookup by moving the SWM16 from the attic to outside.

Previous Setup:
Four wires from dish to SWM16 (in attic) - about 50'
3' cables from SWM16 outputs to (2) 4-way splitters

New Setup:
Four wires from dish to SWM16 (under patio) - about 6'
(2) cables from SWM16 to splitters in attic - about 80'

The PI for the SWM16 is in the same place for both installation types.

All splitters are DTV Green label.

Though I don't have a problem now, I am concerned with the higher numbers. Since the highest numbers are at the CCK and adjacent HR24-500, is it possible that the CCK is starting to fail. Why does one receiver have such a low number and the corresponding receivers on that splitter have higher numbers? If I used the 34 as a bridge, should I see an improvement in the numbers? Why does the HR22-100 not give the error? It is the only receiver with an external DECA.









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#729 ·
jagrim said:
Previous Setup:
Four wires from dish to SWM16 (in attic) - about 50'
3' cables from SWM16 outputs to (2) 4-way splitters

New Setup:
Four wires from dish to SWM16 (under patio) - about 6'
(2) cables from SWM16 to splitters in attic - about 80'

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The key is hat we need to know entire cable lengths, from the SWM16 switch to spitters (provided) and from the splitters to the receivers (missing)

The HR22 can't test what it does not have and as such coax tests can only be done on receivers with built in DECA

Also posting the receivers that you have helps a lot as well
 
#730 ·
peds48 said:
The key is hat we need to know entire cable lengths, from the SWM16 switch to spitters (provided) and from the splitters to the receivers (missing)

The HR22 can't test what it does not have and as such coax tests can only be done on receivers with built in DECA

Also posting the receivers that you have helps a lot as well
Distances to splitter:
LR HR34-700: 45'
MB HR24-500: 45'
ST HR24-500: 45' (CCK W/green label splitter)(-50 & -51 on test)
UP: HR24-500: 30'
HA HR24-500: 25' (-23 reading on coax test)
AS. HR22-100: 20'

The rest are between -43 & -47 on coax test. All node numbers ran from the HR34

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#731 ·
I would move the SWM16 closer (the attic?) and have the runs between splitters closer.

It would appear to me that the HR34 and HA HR24-500: 25' (-23 reading on coax test) are on the same splitter and the rest are on the other 4 way. and with 160 feet of wire between them, reason why the coax signal is low

Are you sing a wired or wireless CCK?
 
#732 ·
peds48 said:
I would move the SWM16 closer (the attic?) and have the runs between splitters closer.

It would appear to me that the HR34 and HA HR24-500: 25' (-23 reading on coax test) are on the same splitter and the rest are on the other 4 way. and with 160 feet of wire between them, reason why the coax signal is low

Are you sing a wired or wireless CCK?
This is a wired CCK.

I'll have to verify on which splitter the "good reading" HR 24-500 but I think the -50 is on that splitter. ( l'll verify when I have a chance).

I've been wanting a reason to swap back to the original setup so I'll do that sometimes this week and see if the numbers improve.

I've got a spare 16 so it will

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#733 ·
My preferred set up would be as follows and this is assuming that you can ditch the CCK and connect the Genie directly to ethernet to your router.

SWM16 output 1 to a 2 way splitter/ connect the HR34 plus the HDDVR that has the longest run here
SWM16 output 2 to a 4 way splitter/ connect the other 4 HDDVRs here
Connect is possible the power supply to the dedicated power connector on the SWM16
 
#734 ·
peds48 said:
My preferred set up would be as follows and this is assuming that you can ditch the CCK and connect the Genie directly to ethernet to your router.

SWM16 output 1 to a 2 way splitter/ connect the HR34 plus the HDDVR that has the longest run here
SWM16 output 2 to a 4 way splitter/ connect the other 4 HDDVRs here
Connect is possible the power supply to the dedicated power connector on the SWM16
That surprises me. I thought that you prefer the wired CCK over connecting Ethernet to the Genie. Based on comments from both you and VOS, I just disconnected the ethernet from my Genie and reconnected a wired CCK in my guest bedroom this afternoon.
 
#735 ·
Bill Broderick said:
That surprises me. I thought that you prefer the wired CCK over connecting Ethernet to the Genie.
depends what hat I am waring. If I am installing, I prefer the CCK as I get paid for it but do not get paid for ethernet, silly DirecTV. Also depends on the quantity of receivers connecting to the SWM network. in this case the poster has 6 receivers which can fit in a 2 way and a 4 way. Had the poster had 7 receivers, then 2 4 ways is the least you would to connect them and them it would not make a difference whether you have a CCK or not. in this case the omission of the CCK is merely to save a splitter port and thus decreasing signal loss.
 
#736 ·
Late to this party as I was moving.

"The numbers" don't match.
I've got a calculator that I've put together with "nominal" losses and 50' off 4-ways should be in the range of -15s for nodes on the same 4-way to 30s for "cross SWiM" nodes.
Anything over -45 should degrade the Phy Mesh numbers and 220 or less will trigger the system test error.

With the Phy levels listed, and the lengths posted, either the lengths aren't correct or the coax is much lossier than normal.

Peds48:
Recent tests of splitter DECA losses have shown they're now -10 dB for all splitters.
Older splitters used to have a 6 dB difference between a 2-way and 8-way, but the newer all have the same -10 dB.
 
#737 ·
VOS,

The lengths are as close as I can get them since most are hidden. What concerns me is this just started. I run a system test of at least once a week and sometimes more. This is the first time that the network distribution error has shown up.

I can remember running the phy test when we first found out about it and I believe those numbers were in 30's, but memory is not always good.

What I plan to do this weekend is:
1). Swap the 24 that has the 23 reading to the other leg of the SWM16 and see what happens.

2). Try using the 34 as the bridge (removing the CCK) and see if the numbers change

3). Use my spare SWM16 and rewire back to the attic (as before) then retest.

Hopefully, that will tell me something.

Another thing that I will check is if the PI is on the correct leg of the SWM16. When the tech installed the new SWM16 outside, we the plug pulled and didn't plug back in until everything was finished. I'm not sure what kind of problem that could cause. If it's on the correct leg, he was lucky.






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#738 ·
I'm not sure what all of that will tell you.
The SWiM-16 has about 6 dB of loss in the crossover.
The splitters have about 10 dB.
A PI has about 1 dB if you're running the DECA through it.
The receiver test should be "repeatable" to ±1 or 2 dB.
I check coax loss with a CCK [or other DECA] at one end and a receiver on the other to run the "one node" loss.
 
#739 ·
veryoldschool said:
Recent tests of splitter DECA losses have shown they're now -10 dB for all splitters.
Older splitters used to have a 6 dB difference between a 2-way and 8-way, but the newer all have the same -10 dB.
Are you saying that the DECA losses for a 2 way are 10db and the losses for a 8 way are also 10db? Curious how they accomplished that, any idea?
 
#740 ·
slice1900 said:
Are you saying that the DECA losses for a 2 way are 10db and the losses for a 8 way are also 10db? Curious how they accomplished that, any idea?
When I first got my hands on these splitters they varied from about 7 dB [2-way] to 10 dB [4-way] to 13 [8-way].
Several members have tested 2, 4, & 8-ways a couple of months ago and they ALL had 10 dB loss.

The 2 & 4-ways aren't hard to have 10 dB, but the 8-way would be because 9 of the 10 dB is in the 8-way split.
I have yet to open up one of these and check out what's inside, "but" I found a splitter design that looks to have 1 dB insertion loss for an 8-way, so "it's possible".
The same design can be padded for less outputs.
I'm not sure why someone would want to pad the splitters, "but then" DirecTV doesn't always do things for an engineering sense.
 
#741 ·
peds48 said:
I would move the SWM16 closer (the attic?) and have the runs between splitters closer.

It would appear to me that the HR34 and HA HR24-500: 25' (-23 reading on coax test) are on the same splitter and the rest are on the other 4 way. and with 160 feet of wire between them, reason why the coax signal is low

Are you sing a wired or wireless CCK?
Peds!

You are correct. The 34 and the low reading HR24-500 are on the same leg.

I did pull the CCK and splitter from the loop which dropped 4 on the test.

The only other thing I noticed is that I now have 8 way splitters. I must have not been paying attention when the tech was switching stuff in the attic.

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#742 ·
According to VOS, splitter size wont matter in DECA loss, So as long as you only have two 8 ways, each on each SWM16 output, getting any less is a moot point. shorting the distance between the two sides of the SWM16 may help
 
#743 ·
Before my current equipment was installed, I had a 4 way splitter feeding 2 DVR's and a wired CCK. When I got my HR44 Genie, I plugged Ethernet into it and the splitter was changed to a 2 way splitter. Recently, I decided to put the wired CCK back into the Guest Bedroom. But, rather than reinstall the 4 way and reconnecting the disconnected coax that still runs to the bedroom, I just installed a second 2 way splitter in the bedroom. The cable runs from the SWM16 to the guest room are pretty short (30' maybe) and I haven't had any picture problems (yet).

I know that there would be less signal loss if I reinstallied the 4-way splitter and removied the two way splitters. But, it is necessary to do so? Am I tempting trouble?
 
#744 ·
Bill Broderick said:
Before my current equipment was installed, I had a 4 way splitter feeding 2 DVR's and a wired CCK. When I got my HR44 Genie, I plugged Ethernet into it and the splitter was changed to a 2 way splitter. Recently, I decided to put the wired CCK back into the Guest Bedroom. But, rather than reinstall the 4 way and reconnecting the disconnected coax that still runs to the bedroom, I just installed a second 2 way splitter in the bedroom. The cable runs from the SWM16 to the guest room are pretty short (30' maybe) and I haven't had any picture problems (yet).

I know that there would be less signal loss if I reinstallied the 4-way splitter and removied the two way splitters. But, it is necessary to do so? Am I tempting trouble?
SWM wise, should be no problems, DECA wise, you are adding another 10dB of loss, but since I know your lay out, and cable runs are short, you should be OK. I should be by your area Monday afternoon should you need a 4 way let me know
 
#746 ·
According to direct. The floor list for a and ird to work is -65 dbm. I've seen em work at -70 but with heavy pixalization. But as others have posted, the closer you are to this ceiling at the end of the run, the less room you have for "rainfade" or any other signal interference issues.

That being said you can also be to hot at the receiver. Though this will vary ( for reason unknown to me) I've gotten errors out of the 'h' series for lines being to hot. (Dbm was at -18 being the box.) I've seen this only once mind you, and the dish was pole mounted literally a foot away from the receiver just outside the wall.
 
#747 ·
tarrakas said:
According to direct. The floor list for a and ird to work is -65 dbm. I've seen em work at -70 but with heavy pixalization. But as others have posted, the closer you are to this ceiling at the end of the run, the less room you have for "rainfade" or any other signal interference issues.

That being said you can also be to hot at the receiver. Though this will vary ( for reason unknown to me) I've gotten errors out of the 'h' series for lines being to hot. (Dbm was at -18 being the box.) I've seen this only once mind you, and the dish was pole mounted literally a foot away from the receiver just outside the wall.
I don't see the question here which makes this thread different than all the others on the forum.

Broadcom specs their chips at -20 dBm to -70 dBm, and the chips themselves vary but should meet these specs.
-18 dBm must have been a legacy LNB, and it might be better to save one like that for another installation with more loss,
SWiM outputs are well below the tuner chip specs, except for the new DRE, which isn't used in residential use.
It's never a good idea to have a system running at minimum levels, but there also isn't much that can be done for rainfade "after the LNB".
The loss of CNR can't be overcome on the output of the LNB.
 
#748 ·
VOS & Peds48

Changed out the 8 way splitter's for 4 way splitters today and numbers have reduced. No network errors either.

PHY PHY PHY
Receiver: (2) 8- way (1) 8-way & 1-4 way (leg 2) (2) 4-ways
CCK (98)(leg 2) -51 -46 -43
Study (58)(leg 2) -51 n/a (?) -44
Han (b6)(leg 1) -23 -23 -21
C41 (3c)(leg 1) -27 -27 -22
(29:3c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -39
(2c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -40
(77)(leg 2) -44 -41 -37

All readings taken from the HR34 on leg 1

The Phy Rate Mesh numbers are all above 250 with the exception of 3 or 4. The lowest is 239 on (2) nodes).

It looks like I gained about 4 on each splitter swap out on the readings on leg 2.

The CCK and the Study also have a 2 way. Last week I took the 2 way out and used the 34 as a bridge and dropped about 4 on the node test.

Though all tests pass now, I still plan to move the SWM16 back to the original location when it's cooler.

I can post pictures if you'd like.

Regards
 
#749 ·
These numbers look a lot like what I've seen, where a 2-way has 7 dB, a 4-way 10 dB, and an 8-way 13 dB.

A couple of months ago, these were tested at two locations by various methods, because a supplier was stating they all had 10 dB.
There apparently has been a change to the splitters as a "good half a dozen tests" between 2-ways and 8-ways showed no difference in loss.
 
#750 ·
veryoldschool said:
These numbers look a lot like what I've seen, where a 2-way has 7 dB, a 4-way 10 dB, and an 8-way 13 dB.

s
are those numbers on reference to swm loss or DECA loss?

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