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The official "ask veryoldschool" thread

136K views 823 replies 136 participants last post by  jpray72 
#1 ·
Folks,

As many of you know we have a great asset in "veryoldschool", or VOS for short. He's forgotten more about RF and connectivity than many of us will ever learn.

I'd like to start by thanking him for his immense service to this forum, and I'd like to start an official thread for the many questions you all have for him about connected home, whole home viewing, or anything DIRECTV related.

Please keep to topic and if you have a question, please read on to see if it's been answered.

Thanks!
 
#752 ·
veryoldschool said:
These numbers look a lot like what I've seen, where a 2-way has 7 dB, a 4-way 10 dB, and an 8-way 13 dB.

A couple of months ago, these were tested at two locations by various methods, because a supplier was stating they all had 10 dB.
There apparently has been a change to the splitters as a "good half a dozen tests" between 2-ways and 8-ways showed no difference in loss.
I'm thinking that when I move the SWM16 back to the attic that the leg 2 receivers will drop to the mid 20's. That is assuming about 5dB loss per 50' foot. Is that a good estimate?
 
#754 ·
veryoldschool said:
It's a safe estimate, but maybe twice what the DECA loss should be for RG6.
Right I was thinking about 2.5

VOS, I was doing a SC today with the main "complain" being poor MRV playback. upon checking things out, I found a SWM16 by the dish with about 60 ft cable run from dish to splitters (both sides). there was an 8 way SWM splitter feeding a 3 way cable splitter ( :bang ) and a four way. after balancing everything out, I wound up with an 8 way feeding a 2 way SWM splitter (intend of the 3 way cable splitter) and the four way. with this set up it brought the system to "orange DECA status" from being well outdid before. but I was still a bit too high on that 2 way from 8 way. when changing the 2 way to come off the four way I was immediately rewarded with "green DECA status" but the HR34 was still barking at the DECA levels. ~48 give or take. When I brought the SWM16 next to the splitters, reducing the 120 foot run (60 each way) I was finally able to quite down the Genie with the worse signal being ~36

The point I am trying to make (or one of the points,) it seems that splitters do indeed have variable loss depending on splitter size. and second, is never a good idea to have the SWM16 to far apart from the splitters.
 
#755 ·
peds48 said:
Right I was thinking about 2.5

VOS, I was doing a SC today with the main "complain" being poor MRV playback. upon checking things out, I found a SWM16 by the dish with about 60 ft cable run from dish to splitters (both sides). there was an 8 way SWM splitter feeding a 3 way cable splitter ( :bang ) and a four way. after balancing everything out, I wound up with an 8 way feeding a 2 way SWM splitter (intend of the 3 way cable splitter) and the four way. with this set up it brought the system to "orange DECA status" from being well outdid before. but I was still a bit too high on that 2 way from 8 way. when changing the 2 way to come off the four way I was immediately rewarded with "green DECA status" but the HR34 was still barking at the DECA levels. ~48 give or take. When I brought the SWM16 next to the splitters, reducing the 120 foot run (60 each way) I was finally able to quite down the Genie with the worse signal being ~36

The point I am trying to make (or one of the points,) it seems that splitters do indeed have variable loss depending on splitter size. and second, is never a good idea to have the SWM16 to far apart from the splitters.
I'm hoping to find some sort of rev number change for which splitters are the same and which [earlier] aren't.
"Orange DECA status" isn't alway a loss issue. It comes from a lack of SNR, which can be due to too much loss, but it can also be due to the same DECA signal traveling through two different paths and combining in a degraded signal.
I had this in the early testing of DECA. My Phy levels were good but my mesh wasn't.
To test this theory of multiple DECA paths combining, I changed the line length of one of the coax by a couple of inches and "phased" the two signals such that the mesh went up and the orange LEDs turned green.

As for the splitter distance from the SWiM-16, it shouldn't have much [or any] affect, "other than" reducing the total run from the splitter to receiver.
You're basically just dealing with loss, and it doesn't matter if it's before or after the splitter.
When you start dealing with vary long runs with amps and diplexers, you may need to locate the splitter farther from the SWiM to keep the phy levels within range for the receivers off the splitter, by reducing the loss on the splitter to receiver runs.
 
#756 ·
jagrim said:
VOS & Peds48

Changed out the 8 way splitter's for 4 way splitters today and numbers have reduced. No network errors either.

PHY PHY PHY
Receiver: (2) 8- way (1) 8-way & 1-4 way (leg 2) (2) 4-ways
CCK (98)(leg 2) -51 -46 -43
Study (58)(leg 2) -51 n/a (?) -44
Han (b6)(leg 1) -23 -23 -21
C41 (3c)(leg 1) -27 -27 -22
(29:3c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -39
(2c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -40
(77)(leg 2) -44 -41 -37

All readings taken from the HR34 on leg 1
Well, I moved the SWM16 from outside by the dish to it's original position in the attic. All the signals on leg 2 came down about 8 dB. Unfortunately, I broke one of the 4-ways so I had to use an 8-way on leg 1. I'll get another one from SS and replace it next weekend. With the exception of the line that contains the 2-way for the CCK, all the readings are now below 35.
BTW, I don't no how installers can work in that type of heat. I must just be getting old.

SWM16 outside SWM 16 attic
PHY PHY PHY
Receiver:[/ (2) 8- way (1) 8-way & 1-4 way (leg 2) (2) 4-ways (8way & 4way (leg 2)
CCK (98)(leg 2) -51 -46 -43 -39
Study (58)(leg 2) -51 n/a (?) -44 -40
Han (b6)(leg 1) -23 -23 -21 -26
C41 (3c)(leg 1) -27 -27 -22 -27
(29:3c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -39 -35
(2c)(leg 2) -47 -43 -40 -35
(77)(leg 2) -44 -41 -37 -32
 
#757 ·
veryoldschool said:
These numbers look a lot like what I've seen, where a 2-way has 7 dB, a 4-way 10 dB, and an 8-way 13 dB.

A couple of months ago, these were tested at two locations by various methods, because a supplier was stating they all had 10 dB.
There apparently has been a change to the splitters as a "good half a dozen tests" between 2-ways and 8-ways showed no difference in loss.
This was interesting to me so today I hooked my meter up to a dish (swm5) with about 50 foot of SC RG6 tested the db with no splitter I then connected a 4 way splitter and lost 6 db I then connected an 8 way splitter and lost 2 more db's so a total of 8 db's. I did not try a 2 way. These were both brand new splitters and newer inventory as well.
 
#758 ·
west99999 said:
This was interesting to me so today I hooked my meter up to a dish (swm5) with about 50 foot of SC RG6 tested the db with no splitter I then connected a 4 way splitter and lost 6 db I then connected an 8 way splitter and lost 2 more db's so a total of 8 db's. I did not try a 2 way. These were both brand new splitters and newer inventory as well.
These are SWiM readings, right?
What meter?
"Repeatability" looks to be ±2 dB
 
#759 ·
Yes it is from SWM5 LNB with 50 ft of cable read it from Birddog Ultra and AIM both gave same reading. I am going to try it again with 2 way and a couple of other splitters. I haven't done this in some time and last time I did the 8 ways were dropping 11-13 db, 4 ways were between 7-9, and 2 ways would drop 4-6. so they have improved apparently.
 
#760 ·
west99999 said:
Yes it is from SWM5 LNB with 50 ft of cable read it from Birddog Ultra and AIM both gave same reading. I am going to try it again with 2 way and a couple of other splitters. I haven't done this in some time and last time I did the 8 ways were dropping 11-13 db, 4 ways were between 7-9, and 2 ways would drop 4-6. so they have improved apparently.
But we are not "talking" about RF SWM loss. this is about DECA loss which is not possible to measure with AIM
 
#761 ·
west99999 said:
Yes it is from SWM5 LNB with 50 ft of cable read it from Birddog Ultra and AIM both gave same reading. I am going to try it again with 2 way and a couple of other splitters. I haven't done this in some time and last time I did the 8 ways were dropping 11-13 db, 4 ways were between 7-9, and 2 ways would drop 4-6. so they have improved apparently.
As peds48 points out, we were posting about DECA losses, but for SWiM losses, your numbers are expected.
Splitter loss is the sum of dividing power and the circuit loss, which varies by frequency.
A 2-way starts with -3 dB from dividing and -1.4 to -1.8 dB circuit loss for an insertion loss of 4.4 to 4.8 dB.
 
#763 ·
inkahauts said:
Hey Vos, isn't it said you are not supposed to ever terminate the ird port of a swim PI?
"Not supposed to ever" is false, or you couldn't connect a receiver to the IRD port.
A receiver is a load, which is another name for a terminator.
When a PI is connected to a pwr port with no RF, a termination isn't needed, but can still be used.
When a PI is connected to an RF port, it should/must be terminated to keep the RF from "bouncing" off the open port and degrading the signals.
 
#764 ·
veryoldschool said:
"Not supposed to ever" is false, or you couldn't connect a receiver to the IRD port.
A receiver is a load, which is another name for a terminator.
When a PI is connected to a pwr port with no RF, a termination isn't needed, but can't still be used.
When a PI is connected to an RF port, it should/must be terminated to keep the RF from "bouncing" off the open port and degrading the signals.
fixed it for ya!
 
#765 ·
inkahauts said:
Hey Vos, isn't it said you are not supposed to ever terminate the ird port of a swim PI?
did not believe me?

a PI RF port is no different than a splitter port as as such it must be terminated. (when connected to an RF port_)
 
#767 ·
veryoldschool said:
Didn't really need "fixing" as a termination will have "zero effect".
My interpretation was that it can't be used for video. upon re-reading I then realize it was referring to termination. my apologies.

How in my mind I thought that you could make mistakes.... silly me.... :rotfl:
 
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#769 ·
hi VOS! I am getting ready to renovate my living room, where my HR 44 lives connected to Swm and a CCK. I'm going to need to move my whole rack out of the room. During that time I want to be able to watch TV upstairs, where I have a C41 client on Swm. I'm going to try to leave the HR 44 all plugged in and try to place it on my mantel in the living room, but if I can't, can I replace the Bedroom C41 with the HR44? I won't need internet features for the few days this will all take. Any advice? Thanks!
 
#770 ·
itzme said:
hi VOS! I am getting ready to renovate my living room, where my HR 44 lives connected to Swm and a CCK. I'm going to need to move my whole rack out of the room. During that time I want to be able to watch TV upstairs, where I have a C41 client on Swm. I'm going to try to leave the HR 44 all plugged in and try to place it on my mantel in the living room, but if I can't, can I replace the Bedroom C41 with the HR44? I won't need internet features for the few days this will all take. Any advice? Thanks!
You can swap the 44 where the 41 is.
Make sure the SWiM PI stays connected and if you have an open coax, that it's terminated.
 
#774 ·
Here's a question:
Went over to a friend's house last week, he has an HR44, a C41 and an HR24 running whole home through coax. His sister living in another building also has DirecTV, her own account and two HR24s running whole home through coax. Separate dishes. But they do share wireless internet. So how can they prevent whole home from one system seeing whole home in the other system - they have separate coax networks, but share a router and that "bridges" the two networks.
 
#775 ·
texasbrit said:
Here's a question:
Went over to a friend's house last week, he has an HR44, a C41 and an HR24 running whole home through coax. His sister living in another building also has DirecTV, her own account and two HR24s running whole home through coax. Separate dishes. But they do share wireless internet. So how can they prevent whole home from one system seeing whole home in the other system - they have separate coax networks, but share a router and that "bridges" the two networks.
I'm almost positive your whole home doesn't require Internet to function. It uses the Swm technology.
The connection to the internet, I'm fairly sure it is for on demand youtube and Pandora only.
 
#776 ·
damondlt said:
I'm almost positive your whole home doesn't require Internet to function. It uses the Swm technology.
The connection to the internet, I'm fairly sure it is for on demand youtube and Pandora only.
I think you are misunderstanding the question.
Both sides of the home want internet access for on demand etc. But giving them internet access creates a link between the two whole home systems.
 
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