Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'The OT' started by Nick, May 11, 2004.
Okay, I get it.
You're just trying to deflect reality by saying "someone could think...".
No. I wasn't condemning all Muslims for this. I'm quite sure I specified that there are many different cultures within a population of people.
The Palestinian culture, which is what I was referring to, is willing to use their children as bombs.
And the first thing you choose to say is, "well, Blacks could be thought of as criminals." I understand analogy. This was a bad use of it.
You're right, some people could say that most Blacks are criminals... so what? How does that affect what is going on with Palestinian children?
And interestingly, it says a lot about you that your first comment is to ignore the main problem (walking mini suicide bombers) like you did.
You might say, "the Israeli government is persuing a long term tactic of either Palestinian elimination or forced removal"
To which I respond with, "yeah, but there is an epidemic of baby girls being raped in South Africa. And if you don't get the analogy, then you're too ignorant for anything."
So if you can explain to me how criminals in South Africa would relate to the argument that the Israelis are trying to eliminate the Palestinians... then you might have a point.
Ok, you have narrowed it down now to your hatred of Palestinians. However, not all Palestinians hate their children or strap bombs to them. In fact, not all Palestinians are Muslim. A large number of Palestinians are Christian. Do you hate them as well? Why do you feel the need to generalize a whole people in this way?
Okay, so how does an ANALOGY work in all of this?
What you're looking for is SIMILARITY so you can show HYPOCRISY.
You're mixing all of that up.
There are more people, worldwide, killing in the name of Allah than there are killing in the name of Jesus.
That's a fact.
So, when there is an isolated example of killing in the name of Jesus, it really has nothing to do with the non isolated examples of killing for Allah.
You don't need a worldwide choir of Catholics leaders preaching love since there is not an epidemic of Catholics going around killing people- aside from the fact that pretty much all Catholic leaders preach peace to begin with.
So you can analogize all you want, but they don't help your argument. They just help to give the rest of us a primer of current events.
Again, Bogy. You're old and wise enough to figure this out.
I don't think any Christian Palestians are killing theselves for Allah, are they?
But you're right, not all Palestinians kill their children. And to those that don't, they are not part of my argument.
It's really not all that hard to figure out.
I am just trying to help you understand that what you continually rant about is how every Palestinian wants to see every Jew and every Christian, dead. But that isn't true. I've never said every Palestinian is a wonderful person. I think there is plenty of hatred and anger in every group to go around. Including American Christians. What I prefer to do is figure out the ways we can lessen the anger and hatred, instead of destroying an entire culture, not all of whom are demonstrating the behavior you attribute to all of them.
I've mentioned it time and again that I"m talking about radicals- maybe not in every post, but in enough of them that if you read my posts through, you'd realize that I was talking about radical Islamists and radical Palestinians.
When I say "Palestinian mothers...." I'm referring to those specific mothers, not every Palestinian mothers.
I thought I have made myself clear, but I suppose not.
So I'm trying again.
OMG you are in such a state of denial in your defense of these thugs.
From the 72 Olympics to the Achilles lauro to the kobar towers to the marine barracks in Lebanon to cole to the WTC all acts of terror done in the name of Allah and all celebrated by the good people of that faith and shown time and time again. But according to the all knowing ever loving Bogy states they have been showing the same tape over and over because it was actually just the same 5 Muslims jumping up and down in front of a hundred mirrors to tarnish the world view of Islam.
Funny how ignored the rest of my post but to argue against it is to support those Islamic b a s t a r d s hell bent on killing the world . But gee we don't want to offend any one so lets ignore it and it will go away. Typical lib attitude.
Funny how you are in denial about how cameras work. If you frame them right a group of a hundred people can look like thousands. It doesn't have to be the same film over and over again, but it also doesn't mean you have seen "hundreds of thousands" of Muslims dancing in the streets. There are thousands of Muslims in Iraq who are horrified tonite because of the abuse of Iraqi detainees AND the beheading of Berg and the poor reflection it casts on Islam. How come you can only be upset about the American?
You don't make any sense whatsoever. Just drop it, it is painfully obvious you do not have the ability to logically understand the concept of analogy.
I won't drop it.
How does the analogy you pose relate in any way to the violent cultures in the Middle East?
Although... I think I know what you're trying to say.
People come up witht he false impression that Blacks are criminals based on the facts that a high percentage of Blacks are incarerated. Using that same logic, you're disputing my claims on violent cultures in the Middle East, right?
The difference is that you're using statiscal numbers- which everyone knows that without context are meaningless. And random people's perceptions based on those numbers.
I'm using news stories and facts of more than anecdotal evidence. I'm referring to very recent history of children being used as human shields and bombs.
So although I'm pretty sure I understand the logic of your analogy, in this case it's flawed. A simple list of incarceration numbers, or violent crimes per 100,000 people is meaningless without context. And you provided no context at all.
I think what many of us are trying to say is that there is a glaring lack of inconsistency with regard to the morality of a situation. A few months ago when a young girl was mowed down by an Israeli bulldozer, your response was "she was wrong to be there". Instead of simply writing it off, you should have expresses the same moral outrage you do about suicide bombing. The only thing consistent about you is that you consistenly apply a political filter to your sense of morality. Our country is so polarized this way today that I fear that the discord will eventually be our undoing.
Atrocities happen all over the world. Suicide bombing, while more sensational, are not of any more important impact on human life than say the 30,000 children who die each day in the world simply because of neglect. Deaths that are totally preventable if we only applied the same resolve we do in Iraq. Yet where is strength your moral outrage over this?
I doubt very much if my statements will have impact upon you. Your ego is too much involved in this discussion. But perhaps a few lurkers might think a bit more about the issues and see it is more than just the black and white picture you paint here.
Without rehashing the whole Rachel Corrie thing.
I'll tell you why there is a difference.
Rachel Corrie was an adult who chose to be in the midde of a war zone.
She chose to defend those who the Israeli's considered criminals.
Most importantly... the driver could not see her. We're talking about an armored tractor here.. not something uncle Jeb is using on the farm.
As an adult, she made a concious decision to be where she was and to take the actions she did.
If one Isaeli tractor driver did actually intend to run her over, then he is a criminal.
Many Palestinan children are tricked by their parents to kill themselves.
I find that I'm repeating myself a lot.
I suppose I do find that there are various levels of inhumanism. Maybe that's where we disagree.
The actions of using the future of your family and country for the murder of others is worse than a possible individual case of murder.
The black and white picture is this-
Cultures which promote or allow the death of children or thousands of people have something seriously wrong with them.
The genocides in various African countries are horrible. They are committed by dictators who do not value life. Many are done in the name of religion and some in the name of racism.
And my disgust towards those actions and the UN, which is suppose to stop this things, has no ends.
But this conversation was based on the Middle East.
You trot out the Rachel Corrie incident, which can be argued either way. But there is no argument when you see a 14 year old boy at a checkpoint with a bomb vest on.
And I agree with you. Any number of children dying a day is terrible. The slums in Rio and South America are, as far as I'm concerned, crimes against humanity.
But we're supposed to have international organizations to help with that.
And I would argue that any culture and leadership which allows those to happen are at worst, corrupt and at best, need help.
The Palestinians are not people you can figure out unless you're a psycologist or something.
I mean a little bit of stress or bullying makes mail workers and highschool students go postal, so it's almost unimaginable what the invasion and conquering of your land, rape of your women by IDF soldiers, beatings by IDF soldiers, harrassment and killings by settlers, daily humilation of your grandparents by the IDF at checkpoints(not in Israel) but in the occupied territories, etc, etc, can do to a normally sane mind.
I think the Israelis would be able to save a LOT of Israeli lives if the Israelis just thought of ways to not humiliate and shame the Palestinians so much.
I think even little things like IDF soldiers smiling or saying have a nice day at a checkpoint could make a lot of difference.
It's not just the fact that the mainstream media in North America is totally controlled by Zionists that Americans can relate the LEAST with and have always had the least sympathy for the Palestinians out of any country in the whole world.
It's the fact that since the US is currently beyond a superpower, but is a HYPERPOWER, White America has never really known what it's like to be invaded, conquered, enslaved, etc, that's why it makes it almost impossible for most Americans to relate at all to the Palestinians.
The Israelis on the other hand are a regional superpower, most Israelis are whites whose ancestors are from Europe, Israel has a per capita income closer to that of Europe and the USA, Many Israelis speak English without an accent, etc, etc.
Even if the situations between the Palestinians and Israelis were TOTALLY reversed and the Palestinians were the Superpower and used the tactics that the IDF currently uses and the Israelis were the underdog of underdogs and used the tactics that the Palestinians use, Americans would STILL absolutely support and relate to the Israelis and absolutely oppose and not relate to the Palestinians.
The reaction of the public to Clara Harris(the woman who ran over her husband with her Mercedez Benz) compared to the reaction of the public to O.J. Simpson is a great example of how in the court of public opinion things like your looks, your gender, your race, religion, etc are really more important than your actions.
If the Israelis were doing what the Palestinians are doing and vice versa, most Americans would still support and relate to the Israelis because most Israelis would still be white, many Israelis would still speak English without an accent, the mainstream media in the US would still be controlled by Zionists, and most importantly, the Israelis would still be Jewish, and many Americans would still believe that "Those who support Israel are Blessed", and "Those who Oppose Israel are Cursed".
The Palestinians owned over 90% of the land before 1948 and many of them still have the deeds to prove it even many generations later.
The UN Mandate in 1948 was to give 54% of the land to 650,000 Jewish Immigrants, and 46% of the land to 1,300,000 Palestinians many whose families had lived there for thousands of years.
Now in 2004 the Internationaly recognized Israel accounts for 78% of the land, while The West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem combined account for 22% of the land.
Since there are many settlements inside Gaza, The West Bank, etc, Israelis really live on something like 90% of the land, and since Palestinians don't have the right to self determination, the Israelis own and control even the last 10%, the Palestinians just live on that little land they're on the same way prisoners live inside a prison, they don't really own or control the land really.
I would like to see any right winger in front of a lie detector and ask them, "If you were a Palestinian in 1948, and the UN told you to leave your house and your land you'd lived on your whole life and your family had lived on for many generations and give your land to foreigners from across the seas", then what would you do?
Those rightwingers can never even think of putting themselves in a Palestinian's shoes, because those right wingers are moral human beings, while Palestinians are subhuman scum.
To the People who think the Palestinians should have just left their homes and land and given it to Jewish Immigrants in 1948 without fighting back, why don't you to put your money where your mouth is and give your home to a Native American?
Good 'ol Jack.
Suit yourself, you only make yourself look worse.
You only demonstrate that you don't.
The analogy needs no context. Here's what you originally wrote, as quoted from your own post:
It's very simple... by their actions, one side simply does not care for the lives of their children.
Am I off in that?
I responded with my analogy:
Yes. Would it be accurate to say that African-American people don't value their children because so many of them end up in gangs and prison? I certainly don't think that, but there are people who do and they would be just as wrong as what you've stated about muslims.Try as you might to say otherwise, the analogy is valid. You implied that muslims do not care for the lives of their children. You made no qualifications on that and in fact used the words "one side simply". "Simply" in that context infers all without any qualifications. If that is not what you meant, then it is you who are in error, not me. You've stated that muslims don't care for the lives of their children because some of them coerce them into suicide bombings. The analogy I made of some African-Americans allowing their children to enter gangs or commit crimes resulting in incarceration could be used to say the exact same thing, that they also do not care for the lives of their children. In both instances, the conclusion would be incorrect. That is a perfectly valid analogy.
I suppose the King David Hotel Bombing, The OKC Building, The IRA, Poison Gas attack in a Tokyo Subway, The Baruk Goldstein Attack on Palestinian worshippers, Etta, The Tamil Tigers, and a million other such examples just don't exist, I guess if you watch Fox News Channel, then millions of examples like this really don't exist in your world.
I suppose that The Holocaust, The Genocide of tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of Native Americans over 6 centuries, The Genocide and Enslavement of millions of African-Americans, The Genocide of tens of millions by Stalin, the genocide of millions in the killing fields in Cambodia, the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children and men directly and perhaps a million women and children and men indirectly in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as the firebombing of Tokyo, The Genocide in Tibet, the Genocide in China, as well as the Genocide in Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia, etc, I suppose ALL THOSE things were also done by Moslems.
In fact all the killings that you state that the moslems have done, all those killings put together are a VERY VERY SMALL fraction compared to the people Stalin alone is responsible for killing.
I did no such thing.
I implied that certain Palestinians in their conflict do not care about their children.
What you have not explained is how the fact that someone might think that Black mothers are bad has anything to with many Palestinian mothers killing their children.
And, I understand that it's a perfect analogy.
But humor me. Remember, I'm of lower intelligence than you. So you might have to hold my hand through this.
How dare you say such things about Palestinians! They're just as human as you or I. They have similar wants, desires, feelings, etc. The main problem appears to be cultural, and that could happen to any "group." As I mentioned last year, imagine for a moment that Hitler and Germany won WWII. What kind of societies and "culture" could we expect to see from that result? I would suggest it would not be a pretty picture. Does it mean that the members of that society are scum? I don't think so. To a certain extent, they would have been driven/forced to their level of behavior by "outside" forces. (Geez, I'm starting to sound like a liberal!). With Palestinians you have a number of similar forces working. You have the circumstances that you point out in your post. You have the dominant religion being applied in a manner that may deviate from its original intent, so that it is applied in an inhuman manner to both its adherents (such as women) and non-believers (such as Jews and "infidels"). All of that comes together and creates, well, chaos. Subhuman? No. In need of change? Yes. The hard part is doing the change compassionately, without causing undue danger to others. For example, giving monetary assistance to "Palestinians" won't do a bit of good if it goes to some of the ruthless "leaders" of the various Palestinian movements. The whole thing is a mess, and I'm not sure we humans are up to solving it.
BTW-- I realize you were being sarcastic. Me too, in criticizing you.
Aha. Here I was thinking this thread was fading away...
In general, I agree with some of your opinions, and I'm certainly no expert on the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict. Your use of the word 'Zionist' made me refer to its formal definition. here is one from newadvent.org - a catholic site of all places:
Zionists are followers of the movement to segregate the Jewish people as a nation and to give it a national home either in Palestine or elsewhere. Orthodox Judaism holds to a Zionism pure and simple, the return of the Jews to Palestine, the coming of the Messias, the overthrow of hostile powers by Him, the restoration of the Temple and its worship, the Messianic reign. The Reformed Jews reject this idea of a return to Zion. The conference of rabbis, at Frankfort-on-the-Main, 15-28 July, 1845, deleted from the ritual all prayers for a return to Zion and a restoration of a Jewish state. The Philadelphia conference, 1869, followed the lead of the Germanrabbis and decreed that the Messianic hope of Israel is "the union of all the children of God in the confession of the unity of God". The Pittsburg conference, 1885, reiterated this Messianic idea of reformed Judaism.
I honestly have no stake either way in the issue, I'm neither Jewish or Palistinian. To be honest, this seems to me like a struggle that will go on forever due to the uncompromising nature of both land and religion.
Your comparison of the OJ Simpson vs Clara Harris case was also very thought provoking. A similar argument can be made for numerous other cases involving women who are accused of heinous crimes and the public's perception of them. Putting aside the race issue, it is my contention that the men of this country (and probably also of the world) continue to be their own worst enemy in regards to equal rights under the criminal justice system. Men still make up the majority of police, prosecutors, judges, etc and we continue to incarcerate ourselves at a higher rate than for women that are accused of similar crimes. If you add the issue of race to the equation, then its hopelessly pollyanish to expect black or white America to be unbiased.
Your comments about getting folks to see the world through the eyes of others seem to fall on deaf ears for 'conservatives'. I've never been able to convince a conservative that their actions would probably be similar given the same circumstances. Even now, I can't get conservatives to agree that they too would be killing, burning, and beheading an occupying army or their appeasers.
Everytime I see a bumper sticker saying 'United We Stand' it makes me wonder who is driving the car and whether its how they actually feel. Our differences seem to be driving us apart at a time when unity is more important than ever.