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The Two Things I Would Like The D* Team To Know, From a Newly Converted HR10 Person:

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by boltjames, Jun 25, 2007.

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  1. Jun 26, 2007 #21 of 103
    boltjames

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    Please see my lengthy math post from last night:

    Scenario A: The way it is today with SD forced to 720p output:

    45% of viewing time = 1080i HD Broadcast = HR20 native > Sends raw 1080i to Sony > Sony on 1080i

    5% of viewing time = 720p HD Broadcast = HR20 native > Sends raw 720p to Sony > Sony on 720p

    50% of viewing time = 480i SD Broadcast = HR20 processed > Sends processed 720p to Sony > Sony on 720p

    * Scenario A means the Sony flip flops from 1080i to 720p half the time I watch TV. That's bad.


    Scenario B: The way I recommend with SD forced to 1080i output:

    45% of viewing time = 1080i HD Broadcast = HR20 native > Sends raw 1080i to Sony > Sony on 1080i

    5% of viewing time = 720p HD Broadcast = HR20 native > Sends raw 720p to Sony > Sony on 720p

    50% of viewing time = 480i SD Broadcast = HR20 processed > Sends processed 1080i to Sony > Sony on 1080i

    * Scenario B means the Sony flip flops from 1080i to 720p only when I jump from ESPN and FOX to something else. That's good.

    First off, in my situation, all HD broadcasts are fed to the Sony in either 1080i (20 HD channels) or 720p (only FOX and ESPN). Those hit the TV native, and there is an additional delay.

    What you need to focus on is only the SD content. Right now it's only available to the TV in 480i (native) or 720p (HR20 does the processing). My issue only has to do with SD being output at 1080i instead of 720p so that the TV only has to change resolutions 5% of the time instead of 50% of the time.

    In Scenario A, there are 100 SD channels in 720p, forcing my Sony to flip flop back from 1080i to 720p half the time I watch TV.

    In Scenario B, everything I watch is delivered to my Sony in 1080i except 2 channels, FOX and ESPN, and thus I could go an entire week without having my Sony flip flop from 1080i to 720p and cause a needless delay.

    If you still don't understand, I'll try again to articulate.

    BJ
     
  2. Jun 26, 2007 #22 of 103
    davring

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    What is a couple of seconds anyway when you end up with a great HD picture? Beats the heck out of going across the room to change the channel to see a snowy, ghosting B&W picture anyday!
     
  3. Jun 26, 2007 #23 of 103
    boltjames

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    I'm going to try to keep this simple since my more complex answers are confusing things:

    The Sony TV works like mad to set the resolution from the incoming native signal. But once it's done that, it locks-in and from that point forward all channel changes on that same resolution are very very fast.

    The issue is that when the Sony has to flip-flop from a native HR20 720p channel to a native HR20 1080i channel, it has to work like mad to lock-in again.

    Stop right there. If you don't get what I wrote, don't read any further.

    If the HR20 allowed all SD content to convert to 1080i before leaving the HR20, then the math would look something like this:

    198 Channels delivered in 1080i from the HR20 (HD native, SD upscaled)

    2 Channels delivered in 720p from the HR20 (FOX and ESPN only)


    Since it doesn't allow all SD content to convert to 1080i before leaving the HR20, the math unfortunately looks like this:

    20 Channels delivered in 1080i from the HR20 (HD native, ones we watch the most)

    2 Channels delivered in 720p from the HR20 (HD native, FOX and ESPN)

    178 Channels delivered in 720p from the HR20 (SD upscaled to 720p)


    Now can you see my point? As currently configured, the majority of the channels are in 720p when the majority of what we watch is 1080i. Means too many times we're forcing our native HDTV's to work hard to swap resolutions. If we get what I'm requesting, the only time our native HDTV's would work hard and flip flop is when we jumped to and from 2 measely channels. Instead of causing massive channel lag every single time we changed a channel, it would only happen maybe a few times a week.

    BJ
     
  4. Jun 26, 2007 #24 of 103
    boltjames

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    The issue is that it confuses my wife and kids into thinking something's wrong with the TV. I leave the TV on NBC HD and shut down for the night. Next morning, my son powers on the TV, navigates on the HR20 to the Disney Channel, and hits "enter". The 4 or 5 second delay with no sound and nothing but a black screen makes him think something's wrong. Instead of waiting for the sound and picture to materialize while the TV is resetting the resolution from 1080i to 480i (or 720p) he hits "guide" again and acts all restless. My wife thinks I bought a defective box when it happens to her. When NFL season starts and I'm toggling between an HD Jets game and an SD Ravens game, I may miss a key play.

    BJ
     
  5. Jun 26, 2007 #25 of 103
    veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I've read your postings. It may just be a matter of perspective, which may never change [I'm old and stubborn by nature]. While the world isn't perfect, I learn to adapt.
    Add one or two seconds to every one of my channel changes and what does this amount to in say a week?
    Five minutes?
    Ten at the very most?
    If I watch a recorded show [or delayed using live buffer] I save 15 min for every hour of programing.
    People have different habits, likes, dislikes, etc. What may bug the crap out of you, may not even phase me & visa versa. It's just the way life is.
    Could D* make a software change that would give the user the option? I'm sure.
    With what is on their plate, do I see this happening any time soon, not likely, IMO.
    Riding in a car long ago with a smart person, a driver had just cut us off and he commented that the time he may have saved by doing this would probably be less than the time to sharped a pencil. Now we know use pencil sharpeners any more so this is dated, but still makes a good point, today. Look at the big picture. A sec here and there verses min per hour. This is the kind of math I do.
     
  6. Jun 26, 2007 #26 of 103
    christo76

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    OK... i get the gist of what you are saying and want.

    One item that I think was causing some confusion is when you state your 1080P display is displaying 720P or 1080i. Technically it is always displaying 1080P. It takes the 720P signal from the 2 channels and scales it, and deinterlaces the 1080i channels. So no matter what the Sony has to do some work. Your issue is that the Sony has to do more work when it goes from recieving 720P to 1080i. This work causes your Sony to go blank for a second, not the HR20.

    I realize the HR20 does have its own pause, when on Native, but on mine its gotten much better and is down to just over a second (and nicely gives flashes as it swiches so I know its doing something).

    I can see Directv trying to improve their res switch times more, if possible, but I can't see them adding specialized programming for customizable switching.

    I'd suggest Scenario C. Turning the HR20 to output only 1080i. Then you eliminate your Sony's lag. Granted I am sure the HR20 can't up 720P, to 1080i as good as your TV goes from 720 to 1080P, but its only for 2 channels.

    Also, are you using HDMI? don't know if that adds any lag for the communication time. I use component and I don't seem to get near the 4-5 seconds you experience.
     
  7. Jun 26, 2007 #27 of 103
    mgavs

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    I don't see anyone mention that native is the only way to go when using a separate scaler such as my VP50. Yes my Panny plasma does a better job then an HR20 but the VP50 is leaps and bounds beyond that. So... yes I would love to see native always on but much faster!
     
  8. Jun 26, 2007 #28 of 103
    boltjames

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    If every time you pushed a key on a telephone there was a 2 second delay before you heard the confirming beep tone, would that frustrate you?

    That's what the HR20's channel changes are like for me.

    BJ
     
  9. Jun 26, 2007 #29 of 103
    boltjames

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    Scenario C would defeat my purpose which is to allow the TV to do all the HD scaling itself. While I don't watch much FOX or ESPN now, it becomes a huge part of the viewing experience come NFL season.

    BJ
     
  10. Jun 26, 2007 #30 of 103
    bonscott87

    bonscott87 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07

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    They are pretty much like that for everyone if native mode is on. 3-5 seconds is pretty much a normal average, depending on if you use HDMI (which can increase the delay) and how good your TV is.

    This delay is why I simply turn native off.

    So let me ask you this. With the HR20 native on, a 720p station looks that much better then if you remove 720p and just have 1080i as an available format?
    To me there is no difference thus I just to 1080i out. If the difference isn't noticeable or isn't huge then I'd just trash 720p and have 1080i as your only output from the HR20. That would seem to solve most of your issues. I know I can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i on any set I've ever looked at (i.e. same station set to either one). But maybe my eyes are bad or something.
     
  11. Jun 26, 2007 #31 of 103
    bonscott87

    bonscott87 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07

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    I just posted this but I'll address it here. So you're saying that Fox (a 720p station) looks that much better by sending it native vs. having the HR20 send it as 1080i? Don't think it's better just because it's your TV upscaling it, does it actually look better or enough to make a difference? I'd say 99% of people could not tell the difference.
     
  12. Jun 26, 2007 #32 of 103
    boltjames

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    I can tell the difference. I have very finiky eyes, and I find that the my XBR2 has a better picture when its handling 720p upscaling than the HR20. Especially for sports. It's one of the benefits of the 1080p Sony panel; it has an amazingly robust scaling/processing engine.

    And, again, the entire point of my request is so that I do not have to compromise any of the HD content for the sake of speeding up the SD content. Letting the HR20 add 1.2 million pixels every eighth of a milisecond instead of my state-of-the-art XBR2 just isn't an option.

    BJ
     
  13. Jun 26, 2007 #33 of 103
    veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Option #17
    Turn native off & select only two resolutions is the setup menu.
    When you watch a 720p program, press format button on remote and change to 720p. repeat for 1080i programing.
     
  14. Jun 26, 2007 #34 of 103
    boltjames

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    If native is "off", then the HR20 is processing everything. You and I paid huge $ for one of the greatest LCD HDTV's on the planet. Having the STB make millions of decisions every fraction of a second instead of the XBR2 is inconceivable.

    BJ
     
  15. Jun 26, 2007 #35 of 103
    veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Now I'm getting the idea you don't really understand.
    If you're watching a 1080i program native on or off [and format set to 1080i] is the same thing.
    If you watching a 720p program native on or off [and the format set to 720p] is the same thing.
    If you are watching a 480i program with native off and the format set to 1080i you have what you're asking for.
    So to get what you're asking for [in the beginning] turn native off & only change to 720p when you're watching Fox, ABC, or ESPN. Bingo you have the "faster" channel changing, you have the HR-20 upconverting the SD programs that you want & when you are looking at 720p, pressing the remote will let your TV do the scaling.
     
  16. Jun 26, 2007 #36 of 103
    chargedup

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    I tried to resist but I can't.


    "I'm toggling between an HD Jets game and an SD Ravens game, I may miss a key play."


    Key play? What key Play. !rolling :whatdidid
     
  17. Jun 26, 2007 #37 of 103
    boltjames

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    If native is "off" and I only check 1080i, then all 1080i comes through natively as 1080i and all SD comes through as 1080i. Problem is, so does all the 720p and, again, I don't want the HR20 to do the upconversion. I want the Sony to do the 720p upconversion.

    If I'm reading this correctly, you are saying that I can toggle to 720p with the HR10's remote when I navigate to 720p channels, but that is inconvenient and not a handsfree solution.

    My simple request- to have the option to output 480i SD in 1080i instead of 720p by default- solves everything. I'd get 1080i native to the Sony and 720p native to the Sony and all that SD in 1080i processed so as to save time in changing channels.

    BJ
     
  18. Jun 26, 2007 #38 of 103
    boltjames

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    The Chargers last won a playoff game when? 1994? My Jets are no doubt pathetic, but they've figured out a way to win 3 playoff games in 5 postseason trips since 1994. You clowns are an oh-fer with a rookie HC, a frustrated RB, and limited HD broadcasts.

    BJ
     
  19. Jun 26, 2007 #39 of 103
    bonscott87

    bonscott87 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07

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    Native off just means it won't change formats automatically. So you can have 720p and 1080i as the only chosen formats and a press of the format button will allow you to change to 720p should you choose to do so.

    During football on Sunday if you're flipping around a lot then turn Native to on for the afternoon and then back off after the games are over. Sounds like this should cover most of your concerns, right? And you shouldn't need to worry about much SD games since CBS will be doing 6 games a week this year with Fox. I think there are only 15 SD games all season this year. I've been changing various settings on my receivers every football Sunday for nearly a decade, it's part of my morning "ritual" in getting ready for nirvana. :)

    So this gets you the highest quality football games you want and keep the channel changing time down for the rest of the family not during football. And outside of football if you want to go to 720p for the odd Fox or ESPN program you may watch during the week you can change the format manually. Sounds like your wife and kids don't know the difference so you satisfy them with native off for channel changes and satisfy you for NFL with it on on Sunday's. And if you happen to be watching something with them that's 720p you can switch the format should you choose.

    I know it's not your request but it's the best solution we have for you.

    Good luck!
     
  20. Jun 26, 2007 #40 of 103
    boltjames

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    Thanks. Appreciate the optional alternative. Still hoping someone in D* land is listening to the plight of the 1080p owner in this regard.

    BJ
     
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